[AndyN]

Being a Horst-link believer for so long, and that being a major reason for the purchase of my 5 spot, I was quite saddened when the news of TNT broke. Slowly the speculation gave way to reviews by many Homers whose opinions I have come to respect over the past couple of years. I began to come around in my thinking. Maybe the HL was all just marketing BS, after all the world is full of it.

I had to find out for myself.

My review-

I won't go into too much detail on the many areas that my experience paralleled that of the previous reviewers.

Braking- Noticeable lack of extension in the rear when braking only with the rear brake, at first I thought it was squat but after watching the shock I found it wasn't compressing. This did indeed give a stablizing feel, if traction was affected I couldn't feel it.

Cornering- Stiffer rear end, despite the argument of others, I do not attribute this to the TNT rear being new and the HL old. When braking into a corner the bike felt more balanced front to rear, I'm guessing this is because of the lesser amount of extension in the rear. I can't say for sure what the reason, but the TNT felt better in the corners than the HL did.

Pedaling- A firmer feel on the TNT, maybe less compliant would be a better description. After returning to the HL after three weeks on TNT, the HL felt smoother on small bumps. I think the TNT may pedal better while standing and mashing but I can't say for sure.

Now there was only one real test left to ease my worries about the prospect on my HL being replaced with TNT.

Steeper, looser, and longer than it looks in this photogragh, this section of tight singletrack is unforgiving when it comes to traction, front end lifting, and if even for a second you lose your line.

Whenever I make changes to my ride, stem length, new fork, saddle postion and so on, I use this hill to see what effects it will have on super steep loose climbs.Over the past year and a half I have gome from a 110mm stem down to a 50mm, 110 to 100, 100 to 90, 90 to 70, and finally 70 to 50. Each stem change significantly changed the body position required to make this climb. The same held true for the switch from the Vanilla to the Marzocchi, the slacker head angle really made me work to get up this hill. But with every change if I just gave everything I had and stayed forward the rear end would hook up flawlessly and I'd power up it. Only on one occasion did I have to make a second attempt to clean the hill, this was after the 70 to 50mm stem length change, which I guess just caught me off guard. Bottom line, if I can still climb this hill with TNT, then all is good.

On the first day attempting this hill with the TNT rear I failed 14 of 14 tries. I was crushed, and exhausted. I drove home after the beat down wondering what the hell could have been wrong.

Two days later I went back, angry. That f-ing hill was mine.

Nope, 8 tries and 8 failures.

Every possible adjustment was made to make it up with the TNT rear, shock settings, pressures, body position, full out mashing on the pedals, steady cadence, you name it.

My conclusion as to the reason for failure; I was unable to keep the front end down and maintain traction at the same time. Was the rear squatting under power? It felt like it. Did the rear end hook up as well as the HL? No.

I went back the next day after reinstalling the HL rear and made it up on the first try usual.

I'm sure that by making adjustments to my ride that I could make it up with the TNT rear, but those adjustments would surely have a negative effect on descending.

I'd be very interested to hear other Homer's experiences in similar conditions. Basically find a super steep and loose granny gear climb, and see if you too can't feel a difference in favor of the HL.

 

[cactuscorn]

what a climb! a good test and one im not sure has been addressed before now. good write up too. not all can be golden i guess.

 

[MightySchmoePong]

Man, that sucks.

I'd be very interested to hear other Homer's experiences in similar conditions. Basically find a super steep and loose granny gear climb, and see if you too can't feel a difference in favor of the HL.

You've just touched on one of my fears. I used to have a Psycle-werks Wild Hare that I always felt squatted and lost traction during steep nasty climbs.

One of the things I like best is steep nasty technical climbs. I always wondered in the reviews if people were testing against the type of climbs I like to do. It sounds like you did and the results weren't good.

If the faux-bar gives up any performance in this respect I'm not interested. It will be interesting to hear some others try to replicate your test.

Thanks for the info!

Dave

 

[BubbaTime]

Thanks !!

I'm happy that I got my 6 Pack . The Turners with HL are the best bikes that I've ever rode. Nothing is perfect. You got to give in some aspects. Yes, I can see the TNT being stiffer, but can't beat the Turner HL on climbs.

Turner should have stayed with the HL. $15.00/ bike to Specialized is not bad. Heck I would pay the difference. Turner has done a tremendous job over the years with it's bikes.

 

[tscheezy]

It's interesting that everyone's tip-of-the-tongue issue was braking, which turns out to be a total non-issue for everyone who has tried TNT. But then for you, squat seemed to appear on loose, techy climbs. Odd. I don't have a test climb like you describe, so I can't say that there is a "by skin of my teeth" section where TNT worked for me or didn't, but in general I can't say I see any effective difference under power between the two rear ends, but then I don't spend much time in the granny (at all) and that is where I would expect to see the rear compress more.

Maybe Aquaholic who seems to relish loose SoCal stuff...

 

[Steve from JH]

Theory says that when the rear tire starts to slip on a granny gear climb like that, the TNT will squat about twice as much as the HL. This should make it harder to recover and not stall out.

 

[Bikezilla]

A heck of a climb indeed. Thanks for the feedback.

I spent a lot of short steep climbs in the granny, and I didn't notice the squat myself. I felt the opposite. It didn't seem to set back as much as my HL while seated or standing on steep climbs. I can't say my climbs looked like what you have pictured though. They were very steep, and choppy but not as loose.

It's quite possible I missed it. The next time I get a hold of a TNT I'll try to look for what you experienced.

Like Ts said maybe someone out west can confirm.

 

[jncarpenter]

A heck of a climb indeed. Thanks for the feedback.

I spent a lot of short steep climbs in the granny, and I didn't notice the squat myself. I felt the opposite. It didn't seem to set back as much as my HL while seated or standing on steep climbs. I can't say my climbs looked like what you have pictured though. They were very steep, and choppy but not as loose.

It's quite possible I missed it. The next time I get a hold of a TNT I'll try to look for what you experienced.

Like Ts said maybe someone out west can confirm.

...yeah, I had similar results. Plenty of steep climbs with questionable traction due to roots & rocks...but nothing that loose. I thought the TNT did a fine job in granny as well. Bummer. I still want a TNT rear for the Rfx5 tho!

 

[tscheezy]

...Bummer...

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater yet. While I respect Andy's feedback it is but one data point among many others. Most have been pretty positive comments, and for most the positives of TNT seem to sizeably outweigh the negatives.

I find his comments on the rear not squatting under braking but rather holding level interesting as he is the only one who has confirmed that behavior I had noticed.

 

[jncarpenter]

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater yet...

...well, it was more like "bummer for YOU". I spent a few weeks on the TNT hitting up trails around here & I liked it enough to inquire about purchasing one. No disappointments for me!

 

[tscheezy]

Sorry, that wasn't actually directed at you (despite the quote ), more at the "well, that settles it, TNT sucks" crowd.

 

[Blue Shorts]

Thanks for the review. That looks like one heck of a tough climb.

Where is that hill? (I missed it if you already mentioned it)

 

[AndyN]

I live in NM, the hill is located somewhere in that state.

To clarify a few points, this hill is at the very limit of my climbing ability regarding traction, leg power and stamina (kind of like the hundred yard dash uphill on a bike). It also requires serious bike control to keep the line. Every time I hit it it's a bite and scratch fight to the top. The TNT felt like it struggled for traction, my best results with it were obtained with steady cadence so as not to lose grip. Normally I'd use high cadence with the HL when the hill gets steeper two thirds of the way up, with TNT I couldn't do this and I'd bog down, spin out, or the front would lift off of the line.

I didn't really notice much difference on the TNT when using the middle ring.

 

[Monte]

I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater yet. While I respect Andy's feedback it is but one data point among many others. Most have been pretty positive comments, and for most the positives of TNT seem to sizeably outweigh the negatives.

I find his comments on the rear not squatting under braking but rather holding level interesting as he is the only one who has confirmed that behavior I had noticed.

It's only one trait, or data point, but an important one for some. I haven't seen any advantages of TNT, only that it isn't really any different. Except for maybe this, assuming Andy's test was a valid one, not like putting the front wheel between your knees and twisting the front end to see how stiff a fork is.

Monte

 

[Steve from JH]

I find his comments on the rear not squatting under braking but rather holding level interesting as he is the only one who has confirmed that behavior I had noticed.

I have been saying for years that single pivot bikes behave exactly that way. So have a bunch of knowledgable people. If you ignore this information, you will be of course quite literally ignorant.

Horst link bikes, at least those with near level rocker arms, will rise in the rear from rear only braking because the rear shock is more closely responding to the actual load on it. The load is automatically lessened by deceleration. Single pivots have enough compressing torque to just about exactly cancel the natural extension of the spring. The perceived advantages and disadvantages of both designs come from these facts.

 

[Alpenglow]

I must be strange

I always preferred my Single Pivot bullit over my HL Enduro and 5 Spot for seated climbing. I always thought I got awesome traction. Now, as soon as I wanted to stand up, the bullit would bob like a mo-fo. The 5Spot definately brakes better and descends better than my bullit did.

 

[Bikezilla]

I have been saying for years that single pivot bikes behave exactly that way. So have a bunch of knowledgable people. If you ignore this information, you will be of course quite literally ignorant.

In absence of your having tried either bike Steve, you are only speaking in some pretty vast generalities. If you choose endeavor to prove your point without personally testing it, on the equipment in question, decaring those who have ignorant, does not seem particularly fair.

 

[Blue Shorts]

I live in NM, the hill is located somewhere in that state.

To clarify a few points, this hill is at the very limit of my climbing ability regarding traction, leg power and stamina (kind of like the hundred yard dash uphill on a bike). It also requires serious bike control to keep the line. Every time I hit it it's a bite and scratch fight to the top. The TNT felt like it struggled for traction, my best results with it were obtained with steady cadence so as not to lose grip. Normally I'd use high cadence with the HL when the hill gets steeper two thirds of the way up, with TNT I couldn't do this and I'd bog down, spin out, or the front would lift off of the line..

I think your test is a good one. I wouldn't expect a big difference between the HL and TNT. The differences would most likely show up when you're at the limits of traction, like in your test.

I didn't really notice much difference on the TNT when using the middle ring.

Even though most of my climbing is doen in the middle ring, I will typically use the granny on the super steep, technical climbs. It allows me to shift to an easier gear if necessary.

I'm still waiting to test a TNT. I want to compare the 2 types on a couple of technical climbs in my area. There are a couple of climbs that I make about 75% of the time..... perfect for testing TNT.

 

[tscheezy]

Steve, you are only speaking in some pretty vast generalities.

And don't forget, TNT squats under braking. It's true because he's been saying it for years.

 

[Bob the Wheelbuilder]

Climbing at the absolute limit is a great test. My old RFX and current Moment excel at this. I'd say this is something other testers should try and duplicate.