[utmtbrider]

I recently got a Garmin Edge 530 and want to get the most accurate heart rate data as possible. What is the most accurate way to calculate my training zones? I have researched the basic method with your age for max hr, the hhr method and lactate threshold. Unfortunately I can't find any info showing which gives you the most accurate training zones. Any info is appreciated.

 

[J.B. Weld]

Good info here

Joe Friel's Quick Guide to Setting Zones | TrainingPeaks

Make sure you're hitting the right intensity for every workout.

www.trainingpeaks.com

 

[KobayashiMaru]

If you use a formula based on age to determine zones, I have some oceanfront property in the Gobi desert I'm sure you will want to buy.

Do some tests and see what your results are. People say an hour test isn't necessary, but I think it's more real world than a 20 minute test. We're all riding at least an hour at some point and every now and then on such a ride you want to go as hard and fast as possible, so do that and look at the results.

It's my experience you're fresher in the earlier stages of effort and your numbers will be lower for a portion of that time, so a 20 minute test won't see your numbers hit what they will when you wear down. You'll see numbers climb as you get into the 40-50 minute section of an hour and you'll actually see if you can keep up a pace for that time.

Please though, understand I have no idea what I'm talking about and should not be listened to as if I am a reputable source of information. I could be an absolute moron.

 

[J.B. Weld]

Do some tests and see what your results are. People say an hour test isn't necessary, but I think it's more real world than a 20 minute test.

A 20 minute test is one of the more brutal efforts that most people will ever do and is very difficult to pace well. An hour test is that x3, pros don't even do hour tests.

A 20 minute test is plenty accurate.

 

[tick_magnet]

I think there is some controversy about lactate threshold and some would even say its sport/duration specific. But for practical purposes, I'd ask what type of test the calculator or device is basing it on. If it's the 20 minute test, go with that.

 

[eri]

Setting tr

I recently got a Garmin Edge 530 and want to get the most accurate heart rate data as possible. What is the most accurate way to calculate my training zones? I have researched the basic method with your age for max hr, the hhr method and lactate threshold. Unfortunately I can't find any info showing which gives you the most accurate training zones. Any info is appreciated.

The age formula is for population average, it won’t tell you your actual max or determine your training zones.

hr varies with power output, but it also varies with fatigue, dehydration, core temp, etc. That means there’s some duration where hr is steady with power, and after that hr will drift upwards, and when and how much depends on you and your current fitness.

So, really, hr isn’t a perfect Way to determine your training zones, but it’s good within some time duration And state.

The important number isn’t your max but your lthr, your lactate threshold heart rate. There are some weird things that happen there. Thing about lt is that when you ride above that effort your hr will increase until you pop or slow down.

So, you can find your lthr by riding on a flat road with consistent wind. Warm up for 30 minutes then Ride faster and faster watching your hr carefully. Let hr stabilize at say 120, then increase effort until it stabilizes at 130, 140, etc. Just kiss those hr for 30 seconds, verify to yourself that you believe the effort is sustainable for 10-20 minutes, then increase. At some effort level you’ll be in pain and find you literally cannot stabilize hr for a minute or two, that hr only increases. Keep playing with speed until you find your highest sustainable hr.

Below lt you can sustain effort, above you cannot and hr will rise to max. With an erg mode power trainer you can find lthr precisely by ramping power. Be careful on a trainer that you have good fans, heat can make hr rise for same power output and so give different results than when actually riding.

Those are my words but I’m some chump, don’t listen to me. Here’s protocols and verbiage from a proper expert coach.

http://www.davescottinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/LTHR-Tests-RPE.pdf

Note he calls out VT… ventilation threshold. Vt is real. I find breath is the best indicator of zone and doesn’t require any gadgets.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

A 20 minute test is plenty accurate.

Like I said, I'm no expert. I just feel better knowing I gave it Hell for an hour, since at a race pace, in a race or time trial, you'll do that anyway. I "pace" myself riding hard, knowing a last 20 minutes is coming, and then I unload for it. So if a 20 minute test after 10 minutes of hard effort works, then a 20 minute test after 40 minutes of equal effort would be more better. It's like how 12 speed drivetrains are better than 10 speed ones because more is better.

 

[tick_magnet]

Note he calls out VT… ventilation threshold. Vt is real. I find breath is the best indicator of zone and doesn’t require any gadgets.

The more I learn, the more I'm starting to think the VT might be more important for LT for training purposes. VT is the top of Z2 and Training peaks has a good article about how Z2 is best for improving lactate clearance as oppose to Lactate threshold training which often leads to over-training. Plus, VT is a lot less painful to calculate. You can even approximate it day-to-day using the breath test, as you pointed it out.

 

[J.B. Weld]

Like I said, I'm no expert.

Yeah likewise, I tend to just quote stuff from people who are 🙃

Admittedly I'm a lot more familiar with power based training zones than heart rate but I know that lots of people (myself included) have failed 20 minute tests due to improper pacing and that very few people even dare attempt an hour one

 

[LMN]

There isn't a real need to be super accurate on your training zones. Partly because your zones move within a range daily depending on many factors.

This way will get you in the ball park. And that is all you need to be.
-Go find a climb that is 6-8 minutes go up it as fast you can focusing on finishing at maximum effort. Take 90% of your maximum heart rate and that is starting point for threshold.

 

[LMN]

The more I learn, the more I'm starting to think the VT might be more important for LT for training purposes. VT is the top of Z2 and Training peaks has a good article about how Z2 is best for improving lactate clearance as oppose to Lactate threshold training which often leads to over-training. Plus, VT is a lot less painful to calculate. You can even approximate it day-to-day using the breath test, as you pointed it out.

In my mind VT is the only one that matters. That is the one that requires restraint and discipline to say under.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

lots of people (myself included) have failed 20 minute tests due to improper pacing

That's why I feel that an hour of effort is better than 20 minutes or a half hour. After any sort of max effort for any duration... 20 minute test, PR attempt on a full lap, weekly club time trial, KOM hunt on a section... I always feel like I could have given more once I'm done with it. I don't get on anything too hard in the beginning because I'm likely to blow up and sputter out, and I pace myself so I don't fail.

It's that little bit I hold back that makes me think there was more to give, even though I nearly collapse at the end of whatever I'm doing. So if I give all I could in 20 minutes or an hour, if I ran out of steam at the end of it in both cases but didn't really give it my all at some point before that, then the extra half hour of effort before that hardest 20 minutes sort of makes up for whatever I didn't give.

It's just a belief of mine. Like religions are based on beliefs. If we get to the same place in the end, is it worth all the bickering about the right way to get there?

 

[tick_magnet]

It's just a belief of mine. Like religions are based on beliefs. If we get to the same place in the end, is it worth all the bickering about the right way to get there?

Except this is not a religion. There are definitely wrong ways to go about this.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

There are definitely wrong ways to go about this.

Eh... Maybe if we were in contention for a world scale medal or something, but I don't think the difference matters that much for normal people. Even LMN was casual about a ballpark being good enough, and he knows way more about it than I do.

Make sure you get 2-3 easy days on the bike, give it whatever Hell you want 1-2 times a week, maybe do a moderate day in a week. Try to get a couple of days off the bike a week. Keep your easy days below a certain limit and then open up on the hard days. You're guaranteed to hit all sorts of zones on a hard day if you let go hard enough.

That will work for most of us enthusiasts.

 

[tick_magnet]

I don't have a problem with approximation. I have a problem with the reasons to support a claim. I don't know you but when you tell me your evidence is "just something you belief in" and than cite a religion, well, I probably won't believe you. No offense and nothing personal.

 

[KobayashiMaru]

I probably won't believe you. No offense and nothing personal.

No offense taken, but maybe you think I'm trying to state something as if I'm right? I'm only saying I personally feel better doing an hour effort. I feel... Like I believe. You don't have to subscribe to my beliefs. I tried to say earlier I could be a complete moron because I know the heat that could develop saying I like an hour vs a 20 minute test. I was about to say an 8 minute test is good enough in the first post, but I just like how I feel after a hard 10-11 miles and an hour on the bike.

I took the time to say:

I have no idea what I'm talking about and should not be listened to as if I am a reputable source of information.

I'm just sharing how I feel. The OP said any info would be appreciated. It doesn't have to be clinical, research based, laboratory controlled, peer reviewed and published medical info. I could tell the guy boiling chicken bones in horse urine and then dropping them on a numbered sheet of graph paper would sort out his heart rate zones.

 

[eri]

In my mind VT is the only one that matters. That is the one that requires restraint and discipline to say under.

Have you ever tried “maf’? It’s 7doing long rides with hr below (180-age).

It’s a really pure aerobic training. Is really difficult to stay below at first. After a few months your pace at maf hr will start to increase, is like magic.

The MAF 180 Formula: Heart-rate monitoring for real aerobic training.

philmaffetone.com

It’s the only time I use hr for training and seems to work well, i think Because it is such low stress

 

[LMN]

There is something to a 1hr effort thing. If I go out and decide I am just going to pin it for an hour on my mountain bike, and I do that from time to time, my average hr is pretty darn close to where my lab tested LT is. Close enough to set solid training zones.

 

[FJSnoozer]

Whatever you do, don’t calibrate while dehydrated on the hottest day of the year. (Or on the trainer with no fan in a 75 degree room)

Above all else, just go pin it for an hour on an XC course and you will get all of the data you need to get started. My HR data is no different now than when I first started racing. It never came down with fitness as people state, I only learned to bury the needle beyond the point of return in a max sprint and tap on 195 BPM as I explode.


NOW, some people just don’t know how to go deep enough, and haven’t learned. They get false FTP test results and bad HR Data. Similar to LMNs comment about the 8 minute effort, I would like to see someone I am “training” in a hard race start end effort. (XC race with steep short climb in the start or a Zwift race)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LMN]

Have you ever tried “maf’? It’s 7doing long rides with hr below (180-age).

It’s a really pure aerobic training. Is really difficult to stay below at first. After a few months your pace at maf hr will start to increase, is like magic.

The MAF 180 Formula: Heart-rate monitoring for real aerobic training.

philmaffetone.com

It’s the only time I use hr for training and seems to work well, i think Because it is such low stress

That formula puts me pretty darn close to what I do my long rides at.

Personally, I don't believe in super strict, "thou shall not pass this threshold training". I don't think sport physiology is there yet with these hard and fast rules.