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Cow Clicker
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Yeah, the San Andreas is bad ass. I've ridden one and it's not like anything else I've ever ridden. Seeing a properly built one in person is a sight to behold! Although I understand why the design isn't still being used, I certainly have mad respect for the bike. I suspect the Blackcomb design was a way to copy it while getting around the MC design patent.

The San Andreas 2.0 is a neat design, but it is WAY too much bike for around here.

I'll say this about the Blackcomb: it's probably a sufficient bike for what many people are looking to do with a bike. I'm not a fan of people bashing on big box bikes and haven't been since my good friend Ronald showed up to a road ride on one 25 years ago and embarrassed me and my friends with our very expensive bikes.

If you've got a Blackcomb and ride it, congratulations - you are doing more than most of the US population. Ride whatcha got and when it breaks, make a decision: fix it or move on. I understand why some people get attached to frames, for better or worse. Just wish others could understand it too.
 

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My point is that value is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. I may rather have a Teocali frame to build, but if someone wants to upgrade a less expensive bike, more power to them. Value is a relative/objective figure.
Value is objective. If you end up with a setup that costs $$$, after spending $$$$, you lost.

Upgrading complete bikes is not cost effective, unless you sell off or reuse parts. Shop interwebz for parts you want and build from scratch, or buy a complete you want, if value is a concern.
 

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May The Force Be With You
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My point is that value is in the eye of the beholder so to speak. I may rather have a Teocali frame to build, but if someone wants to upgrade a less expensive bike, more power to them. Value is a relative/objective figure. One person's value of something is different than another individual's perception of the same object's value.
you can only polish a turd so much, but it's still a turd

As someone who's had a Blackcomb in the past, and built it up into a better bike, I can say the frame (while it is a heavy frame) is durable, and with the proper length fork (frame's geometry is far better suited to a 100mm-120mm fork, and the headtube is more than reinforced enough-just look at the monocoque front end, very beefy) is a fun handling little bike that can handle smaller stunts while not costing a ton. My previous build totaled around $600-$700 and resulted in a decent budget lighter-duty freeride bike for urban riding.
Must have been one heck of a build for $700. You say had in the past implying you upgraded to a better frame which indicates either a fault in the frame or skill increased. The Mountain Cycle clearly has much better and stronger welds then the mongoose. and a "light-duty(?)" freeride is an All mountain bike.


A year ago, Airborne had a $700 freeride bike (a 6" travel single pivot model), but not much else exists for a rider looking for a heavy duty bike on a budget, and thats what the Blackcomb can be when built properly.
Again, most higher quality modern day frames alone are $2k. Plenty of "heavy duty" Freeride / DH bikes exist for under $2000 complete. Regardless of how the blackcomb is built, the quality of the frame stays the same and more prone to damage when the geometry of the head tube pushed beyond it's welded limits. which is why most bikes now a days have beefed up welded gusts to support the head tube and seat tubes.


I'd not recommend a used freeride bike ever (a higher end freeride bike would be heavily used and beat up to cost only $700) because of the abusive nature of the type of riding. Parts used to build a Blackcomb into a better bike could at least in part end up transfered to a better frame when a riders budget allowed.
Not true at all, some just want to upgrade to a more modern day freeride/dh platform. My $1100 now 13 year old Schwinn Straight 8 which was heavily used for racing prior to me buying it hasn't fallen apart, no cracked welds or any other fame anomalies causing catastrophic failure. Much like any bicycle or mechanical machine, due to normal wear and tear items need to be fixed such as tuning the derailleur, adjusting the breaks truing the wheels... Your philosophy on parts used to build one bike then transfer to a better frame makes me laugh and follows ( which I agree with) Bad Mechanics comment about it's worth more to just put money aside to buy a better bike. Now I'm not saying upgrading is bad! like tires... a seat.. maybe some handle grips but I would never suggest to anyone to fully upgrade a department store bike. To me, $700's in upgrades makes me wonder what kind of upgrades one is making? It costs about $700 alone for a rear shock and over $500 for a decent fork, not to mention the drive train... Now I know times are hard and money is tight and not everyone can afford a $2k+ bike but I would want to get the most for my $$. With that, as far as dh/freeride frames go, I can go to craigslist, pinkbike and ebay and find older 2000-2006 frames for under $1k and complete rigs for under $1500. All of which are still built stronger and better equipped then a department store bike. I'm not trying to bash the walmart/kmart stuff. Everyone has to start somewhere and others just want something to ride and I'm not one to take that freedom away from anyone! BUT Typically that's where most of us start and as skill increases the need for lighter stronger bikes increase. By the nature of the beast regardless to what some might say but for the most part it's true... Quality reflect price....


By the way, the San Andreas is a legendary bike that's one of my all-time favorites! Love that bike
The Merit Lawwill 4bar suspension is one of the best suspension designs to date and I too love my bike just as much as you and I'm glad you enjoy yours!
 

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Schwinn8,

You've missed my point on most of my points...

The time when I had the Blackcomb, I had bought it as an extra bike for others to ride, and ended up liking it enough to see what I could make of it. I ended up really liking the thing in the end.

At that time, I was already a top ten placing XC and DH rider at the state level, so it wasn't a matter of skill level, just a neat little project for me. I only sold it during a financial crisis related to my younger daughter spending three months in the hospital due to a heart condition, when I ended up selling 4 bikes, 2 computers and my Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited. Don't automatically assume the rider of a low cost bike isn't experienced...

What you belittle as a turd (that's a you problem btw) may be someone else's only bike, and one they like, so think before you make that statement as you seem far too elitist when you look down on a bike so much. After all, it's not what you ride, but that you ride.

I referred to it as a lighter duty Freeride bike rather than an all-mountain bike due to the fact that it's not well suited to trail riding (all mountain bikes tend to be beefier trail bikes, pedaling well enough, and light enough to climb still) but rather suits drops off of loading docks and stair gaps well, as long as you don't get too wild.

Airborne did have a decent Freeride bike for around $700 last year, not $2000. Not all Freeride bikes are $2k for a frame, even Specialized has a complete bike for $2500 (the Status 1).

Again, I'm not touching a used Freeride bike, and on this the experts tend to agree with me (MBA had an article detailing this, why not to buy a used dh or fr bike, and to be careful of buying any used mountain bike). I know there are deals out on C list, but also bikes with hidden cracks and stressed frames. You can always inspect frames (feeling under the downtube for ridges or bulges for example) but you have to be careful.

Your comment about a $700 rear shock is wayyyyy off. A quick looksie online shows Marzocchi Roco, Fox DHX's and Rockshox models for DH from $299-$425... Snag a clearance fork at 70% off (I did just that with a Marzocchi All Mountain 3) paired up with a even better priced sale shock (Rockshox Deluxe for $80) and you're nowhere near what you quoted as prices. Just a little savy and patience pays off in big savings. Then snag a big Azonic sale at Wheel World and get a double wall bar, shorty stem, post and A frame pedals at 60% off and the cost is near off brand prices. I can go on and on about how to do a custom build on the cheap. I've done more than my share of frame up builds on low and higher cost bikes, but I always try to save on good gear when possible.

Now, while I'm certainly not against big box bikes (ie department or mass market bikes) I've always tended to ride a bit higher end (mid line mostly-say $750-$1500 bikes) but sometimes I've gotten the urge to build up a less expensive bike just to do it and have fun while keeping the build cheaper. Ive had nearly 20 bikes in 15 years, so I've had a bit of everything. Again, it's not about what you ride, but that you ride!

I'm glad you love your old Schwinn (the Lawwill design was cool in its day, and remains so in my opinion) but there's many people out there that'd say it's probably time to hang it on a museum's wall, but I wouldn't tell you to because you enjoy riding it! That's what is awesome, you get to ride what you want! I don't currently ride a cheaper bike, but I would without question, as I simply love riding. I am doing another Blackcomb build this spring though!
 

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times, technology and courses have changed alot in the past 10 years... i highly doubt any department store bike would last a modern day dh course ;) sorry to hear about your little one, hope things are better and it was probably a good thing selling the jeep, they seem to end up more on jack stands then the trail
 

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May The Force Be With You
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no point in hanging it up yet in my eyes. it's still made of aluminum, has 8.5in. rw travel, 100% compatible with modern day components and still weighs about the same as todays dh rigs... all for under $2500, used, and zero frame issues ;) ...
 

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My point is...
Axe and shwinn8 summed it up quite nicely for me. You get more for your money buying a nicer bike as opposed to upgrading a low end bike. It's just math. At the end of the day you end up with an expensive bike with a heavy, low quality frame.

If you want to upgrade one, go ahead, just don't be under the mistaken idea that you'll save money in the long run, or you'll get it to the level of nicer bike for the same price.
 

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The San Andreas was the full suspension DH MTB that influenced full suspension MTB design for the past 20 years.
I don't think I'd say that. It was a good bike for it's time, and quite stout, but it wasn't ever really revolutionary. I think if you want to point to one DH bike and say "that changed the game" it would be the Intense M1.
 

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May The Force Be With You
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I don't think I'd say that. It was a good bike for it's time, and quite stout, but it wasn't ever really revolutionary. I think if you want to point to one DH bike and say "that changed the game" it would be the Intense M1.
aww yes! the M1! how i missed thee i dont know!... the straight 6 also introduced the floating disc brake mount that prevented the notorious suspension lock out that still haunts bikes today
 

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times, technology and courses have changed alot in the past 10 years... i highly doubt any department store bike would last a modern day dh course ;) sorry to hear about your little one, hope things are better and it was probably a good thing selling the jeep, they seem to end up more on jack stands then the trail
Schwinn8, you're assuming I only riding cheap bikes (my bikes are on youtube, I'm not hiding anything)... Not true. I was using a 8" travel full-blown DH rig when I did downhilling. I even said that I wouldn't use the Blackcomb for downhill riding. Please be sure to thoroughly read my posts, as I never endorsed a bigboxbike for DH runs (quite the opposite, I stated more than once that the Blackcomb was not for DH).

My Jeep was a newer model Grand Cherokee Limited with all options other than navigation that wasnt going to ever be messed up trail riding (got a fantastic deal on the thing, well under book value, and ended up making out on the sale after having it for awhile) and I really liked it, so no I wasnt happy about selling it, but it was something that had to be done. Again, there you go putting down something that someone else likes... I'm seeing a pattern on this forum. Not that I'm bothered by it that much, but others could be if the same treatment was always used with everyone.
 

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Axe and shwinn8 summed it up quite nicely for me. You get more for your money buying a nicer bike as opposed to upgrading a low end bike. It's just math. At the end of the day you end up with an expensive bike with a heavy, low quality frame.

If you want to upgrade one, go ahead, just don't be under the mistaken idea that you'll save money in the long run, or you'll get it to the level of nicer bike for the same price.
Look, I dont need a lecture. I made the point of that it is an option for some riders that dont want to (or cant) spend the large sum at once. I've also noticed a common habit here on this forum, where members here automatically "talk down" to anyone who owns/rides/ or even mentions less expensive bikes. Stop that ASAP! Not for me in particular, but rather for the newer riders out there who'll get the message that unless you spend $$$$$$ we dont want you around. That'll push people away from the sport. I've heard that dozens of times from riders who have joined here looking for info and or tech support, only to be ridiculed. They then get discouraged and go elsewhere. Even a rider of substantial experience such as myself is being hassled for even the mention that a cheaper bike could be an option for some riders.

I never stated the Blackcomb would be on the same level as a much more expensive bike, but that it can be made into a "decent" bike without costing a ton. Browsing sales on jensonusa, pricepoint, CBO, wheel world, bluesky cycling and such can get you good parts at great deals, and allow you on a budget to make the Blackcomb (or any decent but cheap bike) into a better ride. I did this personally when I owned a Blackcomb as a extra bike (at the time I had 4 bikes; a DH bike, an XC/trail bike, a SS, and the Blackcomb) and know that you can do it for around $600-$700 if you find sales and have patience.
 

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May The Force Be With You
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wasnt going to ever be messed up trail riding
No comment ( mall crawlers, they make me laugh.. nothing but a glorified mini van. should carry the same not made for off road use sticker)

Why do you keep push people to our youtube page?( probably because you're getting paid per views through youtube because they do that kind of thing) Is it too hard to type what you have on here.( just wanted to randomly type in side the parentheses)
 

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Holy cow, you guys will argue about ANYTHING.

From Mountain Bike Action: "Mountain Cycle ... mountain bike builder who revolutionized the stodgy stick figure hard tail with its monocoque San Andrea dual suspension chassis- and led the way with the first full functional hydrolic disk brakes and inverted suspension forks ...."
MOUNTAIN CYCLE BOUGHT BY KINESIS--DEC 21 | News | mountain-bike-action

From Bike Magazine: One of the first big names in full suspension was Mountain Cycle. It’s hard to convey just how radical this company was back in 1991, when their San Andreas model debuted. ... It was the first monocoque mountain bike frame available to the general public and it sported squish front and rear (with an inverted fork, to boot). Oh, and at a time when V-Brakes were still in their infancy, the Mountain Cycle came equipped with hydraulic disc brakes.
Tested: Mountain Cycle Battery

The San Andreas obviously influenced the Blackcomb design because it was the first monocoque frame and the Blackcomb is a monocoque frame - as was the Intense M-1, which came out almost a decade after the San Andreas.

Building up an inexpensive frame is not a cost effective way of getting a good performing bike. But it's like when people restore old cars. There's some nostalgia or emotion behind their purpose. And I can't stand when people bag on other people's bikes. No one suggested taking a Blackcomb on a modern DH course. And no one suggested you go out and buy one of these bikes and start upgrading.

If you've got a frame lying around or get one for free, sometimes it's fun to build it up with parts from the parts bin or bargain hunt.
 

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May The Force Be With You
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Look, I dont need a lecture. I made the point of that it is an option for some riders that dont want to (or cant) spend the large sum at once.

We are trying to prevent people from spending more money in the long run by supporting the local bike shops and not low quality china built department store bikes

I've also noticed a common habit here on this forum, where members here automatically "talk down" to anyone who owns/rides/ or even mentions less expensive bikes. Stop that ASAP!

all depends on how one reads the big bad letters on the computer screen that get taken out of context as the letters don't show the authors emotions. most is constructive criticism. You are trying to help people and we are trying to protect people from making poor decisions

Not for me in particular, but rather for the newer riders out there who'll get the message that unless you spend $$$$$$ we dont want you around. That'll push people away from the sport.

me in particular ( if you hunt for some of my posts) I recommend to those interested in the sport to buy cheap to see if they like the sport. it's money better spent to buy a cheap bike to find out one doesn't like the sport verses spending thousands of dollars on a paperweight. if they do like it to then upgrade to a bike more suited to ones riding style

I've heard that dozens of times from riders who have joined here looking for info and or tech support, only to be ridiculed. They then get discouraged and go elsewhere. Even a rider of substantial experience such as myself is being hassled for even the mention that a cheaper bike could be an option for some riders.

dozens of riders? and where are those posts at?

I never stated the Blackcomb would be on the same level as a much more expensive bike, but that it can be made into a "decent" bike without costing a ton. Browsing sales on jensonusa, pricepoint, CBO, wheel world, bluesky cycling and such can get you good parts at great deals, and allow you on a budget to make the Blackcomb into a better ride. I did this personally when I owned a Blackcomb as a extra bike and know that you can do it for around $600-$700 if you find sales and have patience.

here's where we have issues again. It seams you are suggesting to buy a department store bike then to purchase/ upgrade the components with parts purchased on line(?). which in it's self (because not everyone like you and I can work on our own bikes) has to bring it to a bike shop and spend more money for those parts to be installed VERSES buying a bike that already has those parts on the bike. Walmart and Kmart sure as heck won't do it nor do I trust them to even assemble one. Bicycles have break in periods ( as i'm sure you know) and require periodic maintenance. maintenance that isn't offered at walmart and again most people don't know how to do or comfortable doing. Most LBS offer this as a perk for 6months to a year. Again! I'm not saying don't buy from a deportment store! I and others are trying to say is by spending a little bit more you save more in the long run.
 

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Holy cow, you guys will argue about ANYTHING.

From Mountain Bike Action: "Mountain Cycle ... mountain bike builder who revolutionized the stodgy stick figure hard tail with its monocoque San Andrea dual suspension chassis- and led the way with the first full functional hydrolic disk brakes and inverted suspension forks ...."
MOUNTAIN CYCLE BOUGHT BY KINESIS--DEC 21 | News | mountain-bike-action

From Bike Magazine: One of the first big names in full suspension was Mountain Cycle. It’s hard to convey just how radical this company was back in 1991, when their San Andreas model debuted. ... It was the first monocoque mountain bike frame available to the general public and it sported squish front and rear (with an inverted fork, to boot). Oh, and at a time when V-Brakes were still in their infancy, the Mountain Cycle came equipped with hydraulic disc brakes.
Tested: Mountain Cycle Battery

The San Andreas obviously influenced the Blackcomb design because it was the first monocoque frame and the Blackcomb is a monocoque frame - as was the Intense M-1, which came out almost a decade after the San Andreas.
So? I have my own opinion, just like you do. If you don't want anyone disagreeing with you then post on a blog and not a forum.

Yes, Mountain Cycles were very eye catching, but they never really revolutionized DH like M1 did. In the history of DH the MC is a footnote. Personally I think it's because the rear suspension didn't work well enough, it didn't have enough travel, and the geometry was still too tight.

Building up an inexpensive frame is not a cost effective way of getting a good performing bike.
This is exactly what I've been saying.



Look, I dont need a lecture. I made the point of that it is an option for some riders that dont want to (or cant) spend the large sum at once. I've also noticed a common habit here on this forum, where members here automatically "talk down" to anyone who owns/rides/ or even mentions less expensive bikes. Stop that ASAP! Not for me in particular, but rather for the newer riders out there who'll get the message that unless you spend $$$$$$ we dont want you around. That'll push people away from the sport. I've heard that dozens of times from riders who have joined here looking for info and or tech support, only to be ridiculed. They then get discouraged and go elsewhere. Even a rider of substantial experience such as myself is being hassled for even the mention that a cheaper bike could be an option for some riders.
"I don't need a lecture" says the man with the massive posts.

You need to reread what's been written. No one said not to ride the bike, or that a cheap bike cannot be enjoyed. In fact, quite the opposite. What people are saying is not to upgrade it, but rather put the money toward a new bike. The wisdom of this has been proven again and again.

Don't put words in our mouths just because we're not agreeing with you.
 

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Cow Clicker
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I say influenced, you say revolutionized - I say tomato, you say cucumber. It was the industry voices, the magazines I referenced, that made the claim that the San Andreas revolutionized mountain bike design.

As for arguing and writing a blog, I made a comment that the Blackcomb frame was obviously influenced by a frame designed almost 25 years ago and you start arguing that the frame I referenced didn't have as much influence on frame design as some others.

I say you guys will argue about anything because you can't take anything for what it is. What I find on this forum, a lot, is some people are happy with what they have until some azzhole tells them they shouldn't be happy with it. If someone asks, hey, I'm thinking about buying bike X for $250, then give your opinion. But if someone says, I've already bought bike X, say, cool, congratulations - let me know if you need any help!
 

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Out of curiosity, which state, class, and year?
High school varsity mountain bike racing in Kentucky, in 2002/2003/2004. My riding earned me a full college scholarship in the end. Now, going on 27 I have fond memories of those racing years, but now I have a successful sales career, a wife and two daughters so I've chose not to race anymore since being good requires a good amount of training and I'd rather spend time with my family.
 

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No comment ( mall crawlers, they make me laugh.. nothing but a glorified mini van. should carry the same not made for off road use sticker)

Why do you keep push people to our youtube page?( probably because you're getting paid per views through youtube because they do that kind of thing) Is it too hard to type what you have on here.( just wanted to randomly type in side the parentheses)
Now we have you telling me what vehicle I shouldn't drive.

No, I do not make money off of youtube. Monetization is what it's called, and I don't even qualify, so if I did want to, I still couldn't. The link to YouTube is in my signature line, so it shows up no matter what. You don't have to click If you don't want to, but it's there if you're interested.

I'm nearly done with this forum again, for the same reasons I left three years ago. Anytime that someone posts anything remotely supporting lower end bikes gets entangled into a long debate that's cumbersome to continue. I understand your guys viewpoint, and haven't argued against it, but rather stated a different viewpoint that the majority doesn't like.

About the dozens of riders who've left this forum for the same reason, there's actually a whole forum started by individuals that left here... You guys pushed newer riders away with the talk of higher end or nothing. Saying that someone is riding a worthless bike, or one not worth fixing/upgrading (not that all on here did take that position, but many do) will drive people away. Other forums gain members, so good for them.
 
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