Manitou Minute 02 oil change help

thanks for the info guys.
Yea, I didn't know exactly know what it was when I bought it off Ebay.
But its listed as having "custom tpc lockout" hmmm... I was hoping for SPV and didn't know it was lacking that, but the lockout is nice. On the leg of the fork it has what appear to be original stickers saying: Minute02, 32mm stachions, TPC lockout, rebound, and 100 130 RTWD.
Here is a link to the auction and a few photos. Does anyone know if it is, modified, a freak, a relabled Black :-(, or what???
Tell the truth, I can take it.

I can send more photos of the stickers if that makes a diff. Will post photos of the guts later. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58084&item=7236468087

Also, I did uncrew the top cap and bottom screw, and even pried :eekster: very gently, and it still didn't come up. Maybe I do need to tear it down and see whats going on. It does seem to work correctly though.

Thanks again, Brian.

Ok, did a little research. The stachions on my fork are truely 32mm, so it is really a '06 Minute or better. Also I ordered an x-firm spring, and it matched matched up (with the installed soft spring) and fit perfectly, so it still looks like a Minute shock. The only other shock that shares the same spring as my "minute" is the RTWD Nixion.
B.

BigBri said:

thanks for the info guys.
Yea, I didn't know exactly know what it was when I bought it off Ebay.
But its listed as having "custom tpc lockout" hmmm... I was hoping for SPV and didn't know it was lacking that, but the lockout is nice. On the leg of the fork it has what appear to be original stickers saying: Minute02, 32mm stachions, TPC lockout, rebound, and 100 130 RTWD.
Here is a link to the auction and a few photos. Does anyone know if it is, modified, a freak, a relabled Black :-(, or what???
Tell the truth, I can take it.

I can send more photos of the stickers if that makes a diff. Will post photos of the guts later. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=58084&item=7236468087

Also, I did uncrew the top cap and bottom screw, and even pried :eekster: very gently, and it still didn't come up. Maybe I do need to tear it down and see whats going on. It does seem to work correctly though.

Thanks again, Brian.

Ok, did a little research. The stachions on my fork are truely 32mm, so it is really a '06 Minute or better. Also I ordered an x-firm spring, and it matched matched up (with the installed soft spring) and fit perfectly, so it still looks like a Minute shock. The only other shock that shares the same spring as my "minute" is the RTWD Nixion.
B.

Click to expand...

Oh holy ****! Hey guys ..... GUYS!! Check the link - MANITOU IS LISTENING!!!!!!!!

Okay, not really - it's probably just a fluke.

Okay Bri, what you've got is one of either two things;

1) it's an '06 Minute and someone swapped in a TPC compression damper from a 32mm fork (Nixon). Now, the question BEGS to be asked about what was done, if anything, about the rebound damper. At this point you'd really want to check it and know, for sure, exactly what you have.

2) It's a Nixon with Minute labels. Possible, but the lowers don't look right to be that.

I still don't get how the compression damper won't come out. Maybe try taking it all apart and see what giong on inside the right leg when looking from the bottom. Definetly post a pic of what's in the bottom of the right leg (rebound damper).

Ummmm, so, just to be SURE with that TPC cap ..... you know you have to take off the red lever/knob first, right? Use a little allen key to unscrew that and THEN a bigger wrench/socket to get the actual CAP off. We know that, right? Again, just being SURE.

(singing) Bri's got a freeeeeaaaaak, Bri's got a freeeeaaaaaak! No, really, it's a good find. Have you called Manitou about this yet? It'd be interesting to hear what they have to say. "They did WHAT? Oh, we didn't know you could do that. Oh, EBay? You have no warranty ..... bye." (shrug)

OK, deleted my long and detailed original message:madman: so this is gonna be a little curt..

Hey Andrew,
You #1 answer sounds likely to me. I think Ronnie is on the right track with the custom OEM fork idea. It does appear to be a new bike pulloff. It looks new, but installed, with all original stickers, including the "TPC lockout" sticker. At first I thought it might be a guys custom job, but the original TPC sticker leads me to believe it is a factory custom. Wonder why a manufacturer would spec a custom for like that?

I did remove the red lever, then unscrew the large black cap. It comes out to the end of the threads, but then doesn't want to go any further. I'll try a little harder next time.

Ronnie,
It has what appears to be an original "TPC lockout" sticker on the side, so I assume that it has TPC. What other types of dampers come in these things? Is the TPC damper a good one?

Also, I did email Manitou tech support about dialing-in the "platform -plus." This is the responce...
"Brian,
The damping is based on platform technologies through the shape of the
piston, the way the shim are controlled and the way the adjusting needle
works in the piston. It works by turning the red knob at the top of the
crown. We did not develop a lock out system for this fork."

So, appearantly they would consider it an oddball too!

So do you guys know what the different type of guts are, that go in these things?
Is it only TPC or SPV?
Can one have SPV with lockout?
I'm wondering if I should try to find a SPV damper to try out... you guys like em?
The lock sure is handy though, especially if I can fit a handlebar control.

Looks like I'm gonna' need (get) to take it apart.
Thanks again, Brian.

Oh yea, I have both Shock Nectar and Specro fork oil. I don't think either one is synthetic. Is non-synthetic alright? B.

OK, I couldn't take it anymore! I pulled it apart, very easy indeed. Seems the reason the top damper wouldn't come out is bacause the bushing was still real snug. I "pumped" it out using the bottom damper.
Here is the photo. TPC? Also, is non-synthetic OK? and what goes in the oil bath?
B.

I concur on the OEM spec as Ronnie suggested. Manitou has done this for years now and it looks like they aren't stopping. At the very least it's good news for prospective owners that don't like SPV to get an actual TPC damper that will bolt right it. I thought about the TPC sticker after and it makes sense.

Q's;

Different types of guts - SPV ("platform" damping), TPC+ and TPC (plush damping/non-platform, the + is a superior piece offering better progression control) and FFD (basically non-adjustable TPC) are what Manitou has to offer. The SPV damping uses a somewhat different type of rebound damping assembly. The TPC+, TPC and FFD one's are the same thing. All the previous Minute's ('04 and '05) are SPV only. There is a mod one can do to remove the SPV feature to make the damping behave more like TPC called Devolve, invented by Dougal here on MTBR - search if you like, but it would be a useless mod for you with your fork already being TPC (interesting reading though).

SPV with lockout does not exist. At least that WE know of.

Try SPV? Everyone is different and there's been numerous opinion's as to which is truly better. I'd say read up on SPV, how it works, it's pro's/con's etc. IMHO, i'll be staying away from SPV from now on. Besides, you can always revalve a TPC damper to behave however you want. It takes work, but it's possible.

Handlebar lockout? Don't think so (again, that WE know of). Manitou hasn't made one for a 32mm fork yet, so you don't have the parts necessary to even source it to try to mod it. The handlebar mounted lockouts were only available on the Skareb (28mm), Black and R7 Super (both 30mm). None of them would fit your stanchion tubes.

Oils - a few others have posted about using non-synthetic, but what I was told was different. My discussion was with Ed Breslau, Global Manager for Answer Manitou. He said if it isn't synthetic it'll void your warranty. I don't think he'd say this if there wasn't a good reason. No, you don't have a warranty, but think about the source of the info. Anyways, you can always use Mobil 1 engine oil - a 10W-anything will work for the semi-bath oil (to lubricate the lowers/bushings). Any manufacturers full synthetic engine oil in a 10W will do the trick. The Spectro fork oil should be synthetic, which one is it specifically? (limited Spectro experience here)


EDIT (because your computer problem is contageous!) - yup, that's a TPC compression damper and a typical TPC/FFD rebound damper you've got in there.

Hey Guys.
Thanks for all the info Andrew.
I went ahead and used the 15wt Spectro. It is simply labled "Spectro Fork Oil SAE 15wt."
I found info on the amount of oil required on the Manitou website. Looks like they jsut posted a service manual that includes the, guess what? The Minute SPV lockout 100-130 RTWD. Thats what I have! So, I guess they are slightly aware of its existance.
The listing for the oil volume is on page 33 if you are curious.
http://www.answerproducts.com/guide...Service Manual.pdf?cvar1=7/5/2006+10:59:11+AM

The 15wt seems pretty good. At minimum damping settings it seems like it might be jsut right or a little under-damped, and at max it is over-damped. Just right, it puts my correct setting someware in the middle. I does feel like it might be a little undersprung, even though I'm running the x-firm spring and booster. Feels like I'm having to slow it down with a little extra compression damping instead of a higher spring-rate, and having to sacrafice a little plushness. I've only gone on a short ride though so these are really only my first impressions.

I'm wondering about the oil bath. Seeing as how it originally had very little, I'm wondering about it's function. Its seems my shock is more progressive. Might that be a function of the airspace between the stacions and lowers being compressed? When I added the oil bath did it reduce the airspace in increase the progressiveness? I'm just wondering if that might be another tuning option.

How about dialing in the compression damping. Is theTPC low-speed circuit controlled only by the needlevalve? With the higher speed going through the shim stack? So any tuning would involve dialing in the shims? (I think that would be over might head, time and patience wise ) Oh, and oil vis change, which I've already done.

It feels good now. The front is now nicely ballanced with the rear (AD-12). Thanks again for the info dude. B.

BigBri said:

Hey Guys.
Thanks for all the info Andrew.
I went ahead and used the 15wt Spectro. It is simply labled "Spectro Fork Oil SAE 15wt."
I found info on the amount of oil required on the Manitou website. Looks like they jsut posted a service manual that includes the, guess what? The Minute SPV lockout 100-130 RTWD. Thats what I have! So, I guess they are slightly aware of its existance.
The listing for the oil volume is on page 33 if you are curious.
http://www.answerproducts.com/guide...Service Manual.pdf?cvar1=7/5/2006+10:59:11+AM

The 15wt seems pretty good. At minimum damping settings it seems like it might be jsut right or a little under-damped, and at max it is over-damped. Just right, it puts my correct setting someware in the middle. I does feel like it might be a little undersprung, even though I'm running the x-firm spring and booster. Feels like I'm having to slow it down with a little extra compression damping instead of a higher spring-rate, and having to sacrafice a little plushness. I've only gone on a short ride though so these are really only my first impressions.

I'm wondering about the oil bath. Seeing as how it originally had very little, I'm wondering about it's function. Its seems my shock is more progressive. Might that be a function of the airspace between the stacions and lowers being compressed? When I added the oil bath did it reduce the airspace in increase the progressiveness? I'm just wondering if that might be another tuning option.

How about dialing in the compression damping. Is theTPC low-speed circuit controlled only by the needlevalve? With the higher speed going through the shim stack? So any tuning would involve dialing in the shims? (I think that would be over might head, time and patience wise ) Oh, and oil vis change, which I've already done.

It feels good now. The front is now nicely ballanced with the rear (AD-12). Thanks again for the info dude. B.

Click to expand...

TPC lockout, not SPV, but you got it.

Semi-bath - i've never found it to be a viable tuning option. It's pretty simple - if you overfill it the oil MUST be displaced somewhere. Guess what happens? POP goes the oil seals. It's a messy experience!

Tuning - you're pretty limited as to what you can tune on your compression damper. With an adjustable TPC damper (ie. non-lockout) you have mariads of optionos, with the lockout, not so. You really only have the needle valve to play with, NO shims. So basically, you have your high- and low-speed damping taking place through one orifice (one inlet, through the bottom, and two outlets on either side). Basically, it's a bit of an over-glorified FFD damper - only you DO have some form of adjustment. ***i'll get back to you with more on this tomorrow night - too late to get into it right now - it'll be worth the wait***

REMEMBER - your fork might still be experiencing stiffness due to newness (think break-in). It may/not change in a month (depeiding on ride frequency and conditions etc). I'd say leeave it all alone for now, ride the crap out of it then re-evaluate with a few more hours useage.

Okay, so I was going to tell you more about your specific compression damper.

You don't have any shims to play with - period. At least not on the compression side - the rebound you can tune in typical shimmed damper fashion.

The way the crown mounted lockout dampers work is;

circuit open - oil flows through the needle/seat. It's one inlet and two smaller outlets. As I said before, basically an FFD damper, but you can adjust the flow through it a bit. Don't expect huge range and even then the "curve" of the damping is pretty steep - meaning, as you turn the lever closer to the lockout position the damping rate increases drastically.

circuit closed (lockout) - the oil flow through the needle/seat is closed. NO oil flows through there. You'll notice there a spring and plastic washer on top of the piston - that's how the lockout blow-off is achieved. If you didn't have this spring and washer you'd do damage to your fork with the hydraulic pressure that builds inside the chamber. What happens is the pressure increases as you hit a bump and this pressure MUST be relieved somehow. The spring is forced open and oil is momentarily allowed to flow through the piston. Now I say momentarily - that means you DO have a small amount of travel during lockout - it depends on the size of the impact, but it's a very small amount of travel, like maybe 10 mm if you come off a 5-footer. Now, if you didn't have this spring and washer then you'd have a "hole" in your piston - actually, four holes is what Manitou typically uses - an virtually no damping ..... ever.

Also worth mentioning - there's a shim under the compressure dmper's piston - this is a one-way check valve. It's purpose is pretty self explanatory and it's useage is simply to help oil flow on the rebound stroke. It allows faster oil flow through the extra ports not being used for the compression stroke. While motorcycle forks typically use only one piston for both compression and rebound damping the TPC uses two pistons (one for each).

I just wanted to make sure you knew what was up with that lockout damper and maybe educate a few owners out there. If you're crafty you can always turn a crown mounted lockout damper into a "traditional" shimmed damper if you read between the line's above.

BigBri said:

Hey Andrew,
Just wanted to say a quick thanks and ask one more question. On TPC lockout, having never seen any of the other dampers, I'm guessing that if I chose to create a platform-ish shimmed damper, I'd be replacing the lockout "blow-off" valve with a light spring and shims. Any idea if stock shims would drop right in, or would it be a serious custom project? It might be handy to switch between fully active, or a pretty solid, yet active platform.
I'm mostly just curious. I think if I make any mods I'd probably just drop in an SPV damper.
Regards, Brian.

Click to expand...

Yes and no, for all of your Q's.

With the crown mounted lockout damper you can modify it by replacing the spring, plastic washer and spring sleeve (aluminum piece under/inside the spring), but you need to do some work to get it to accept shims - definetly custom work. I won't get into it too much, but the main "problem" with doing this mod is that there's a lip on the top face of the piston that acts as a guide to keep the washer centered on the piston, so it's always sure to cover all 4 ports on the piston - that's what you need to get around. The I.D. of that washer is a non-standard size - off the top of my head i'm thinking 10.5 - 11 mm. Also, you'd need some kind of sleeve to replace the spring/sleeve to keep pressure on the shims you'd install.

VERY possible if you have the enginuety and creativity.

EDIT - if you wanted to run SPV you'd need to change the top cap and the rebound damper assembly, so you'll be "in for a few bucks" to swap. Just a friendly FYI. Nothing to say that the I.D. of the stanchion is the same or different for it to work.