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Another two questions if I may...

What is the deal with the lost travel?
Have read about it in a couple of places.

Is this normal, and is it fixable... Don't know if I want a 150mm travel fork that only gets 135-140mm.
The other question is how does it do under a heavier rider - about 220 geared up?

Thank-you

michael
Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel
 

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Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel
Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.
 

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I don't really know how Fox does it, they can release total crap, and people keep buying...
While the new 36 sounds like a great fork, and Fox has supposedly fixed the bushing issues, it is still over a G-note.
Either the spring sucks, or the damper has issues, they do get it right eventually, but the public seems to do a lot of product testing for them.
Then Fox learns what it should have done, then offers its testers the upgrade for a nominal fee...
The thing that gets me is they have been doing this for years, but for some reason never seem to take the hit.

As for a new product needing a bit of love, I agree, we should not have to do anything but cut steerer, install and ride.
However history has shown us that every mfg seems to have a problem getting the correct amounts of fluids/lubricants in their thousand dollar products....then when it all goes pear shaped, it is not their fault but the customer for whatever reason, but we all know if the product was as it says on the tin, then most of the problems would not exist.

I don't really have a huge problem sorting the air-valve, travel adjust spacers and even some finangled air tokens if required as long as the potential is there. It is pretty much SOP now. If I don't loose small bump with the proper air pressure, it does not dive excessively, and can take some gnar without loosing its sh!t then I'm good - even with - 5 mm.

Probably going to order a black 26 160 Pro from CRC for 7 bills canadian in the next couple of days - unless something new comes up or I stumble upon a killer deal.

michael
 

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You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.
 

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Don't buy this fork expecting it to be perfect straight out of the box. It's more likely than not it will suffer from the travel loss issue as my 2015 model did. Luckily, it is fairly easy to fix by adjusting the position of the poppet valve and limiting the oil content of the air spring. Links and discussion in the last few pages of this thread.

Also, it appears as if they may be around 5mm short of travel
Honestly, that is not good. If manitou wants to get back in the game, they have to at least provide a fork that does not require maintenance the minute you buy it.
Hey guys, this is not a widespread issue that requires a fix for all forks. It's adjustment required for some forks. It can also be a problem caused by the pump used not depressing the rod.

As for travel. I'm getting a hair over 150mm from my 160mm Mattoc. I haven't yet been into the fork to check bottom-out bumper height. But normally full travel requires the bumpers to be pretty much flattened.
With the HBO my fork feels like it's only just kissing the bumpers and the last bit of travel is there for the moments you think you're going to die.
 

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Are you following the main float 36 thread? They have their issues, but it does seem that fox can get away with it and manitou can't.
I think the problem is that Fox can get away with it and Manitou can't. I love how Fox completely changed their compression rates and now everyone is saying the original setting was very harsh and now it is like butter. Yet, 6 months ago, it was butter. I am more convinced than ever that Fox makes junk and pays people to review their product.
 

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Agreed to above. My Mattoc Pro has been great. I have the HBO at 2 and it does what it should. Might even be able to back it out to 1, either that or leave at 2 and drop air pressure a little bit. I also leave both compression adjusters at 1 or 2, so I might be using the air spring more than I need, that said it works great.

Might be able to get even better small bump compliant by dropping the air pressure a touch and then boosting up compression and/or HBO.

Not certain on any travel loss as I have never measured, but was advised that you can essentially reduce the travel by compressing the fork while pump is attached. The reverse is also true that you can reset the travel by fully extending the fork while pump is attached.

As I understand it, if / when a travel adjust system comes out, it will essentially work the same way.

Today I have a brand new 2015 Fox 36 Talas arriving and hope to get it on the bike tonight, then get a couple of rides on it this weekend. I am not going to sell my Mattoc, it is just the gear junkie in my wanting to see how the two forks compare.

Some have complained about the Mattoc, but from what I read on the 2015 Fox 36 forum, the more expensive Fox 36 fork needs a 2 cent ziptie to equalize pressure between the pos/neg chambers. As much as technology has improved some things still have us going ... wtf.
 

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I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will definitely bottom out my shock.

My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
HSC - always 1/5
HBO - 1/5
Rebound 2/5

The Mattoc tuning guide is a little confusing because it considers max damping to be zero, and backing it off counts up: 0 is fully closed and 4 is fully open for HBO, as an example. That's fine-- but usually on MTBR people are talking the other direction, clicks up from open.

I would prefer a heavier rider comment with their experience, but I think based on my settings (low air pressure and nearly open damping) that the fork would do quite well for someone in the 220-250 pound range.

Also, I still haven't installed my MILO. I think it would be great for enduro racing, but for trail riding, there is no need to crank up the LSC on the fly. The fork does really, really well under heavy braking and climbing. It doesn't bob much (at least at 25% sag) and the brake dive is way less than the last fork I used, which admittedly was nowhere near this caliber - it was a Float 32 120 RLC. On that fork, if you dialed in enough LSC to resist brake dive, small bump performance went to ****.
 

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I have a somewhat unique situation of putting a Mattoc on a 5" bike. Even after reducing the travel to 140mm, I find that anything gnarly enough to bottom the fork will definitely bottom out my shock.

My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
HSC - always 1/5
HBO - 1/5
Rebound 2/5

The Mattoc tuning guide is a little confusing because it considers max damping to be zero, and backing it off counts up: 0 is fully closed and 4 is fully open for HBO, as an example. That's fine-- but usually on MTBR people are talking the other direction, clicks up from open.

I would prefer a heavier rider comment with their experience, but I think based on my settings (low air pressure and nearly open damping) that the fork would do quite well for someone in the 220-250 pound range.

Also, I still haven't installed my MILO. I think it would be great for enduro racing, but for trail riding, there is no need to crank up the LSC on the fly. The fork does really, really well under heavy braking and climbing. It doesn't bob much (at least at 25% sag) and the brake dive is way less than the last fork I used, which admittedly was nowhere near this caliber - it was a Float 32 120 RLC. On that fork, if you dialed in enough LSC to resist brake dive, small bump performance went to ****.
I'm roughly the same weight as you (170-180lbs wet depending on the time of year, + 10lbs in gear). I run 25% sag up front and 30% in the rear measured DH style (ie in the standing attack position). 127mm of rear travel and 140mm front. Your setup would be a bit soft for me. I run HBO all the way in, LSC 2 clicks out from closed, and HSC 2 clicks out from closed. I don't remember my exact LSR setting but it's closer to closed then open to keep pressure on the HSR stack.

What frame/shock combo are you running? I have a Yeti SB75 with a Float CTD. The TPC+ damper in the Mattoc is a traditional speed sensitive shimmed damper, while the Float CTD uses a position sensitive Boost Valve. A high velocity impact that would be handled immediately by the high speed compression circuit in the Mattoc wont reach the same damping resistance until later in the travel in the Float CTD due to it being a position sensitive damper rather then a speed sensitive damper. My preferred solution to the imbalance is to run a shock using a traditional shimmed setup.
 

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... My settings - currently 190 pounds geared up. (In 60 days I hope to be 175 geared up - that is my in-shape number)

Air - 53 psi = 25% sag
LSC - 1/5 most trails, 2/5 if lots of climbing or out of saddle pedaling
HSC - always 1/5
HBO - 1/5
Rebound 2/5 ...
Colin, I am similar in weight 190 before gear and like you would like to get down to 175. Wish us well in that. However, I run considerably more air pressure to setup my fork. Likely only running about 20% sag. I use air pressure and sag more a guideline, in the end I go with how the fork feels on both the smaller chatter and bigger bumps.

I wonder if the travel reduction plays a part in the air pressure required to get a certain amount of sag.

I was running around 80psi in my Mattoc before it was serviced. (Local Manitou rep saw me with the fork and said to bring it in. It only had a few rides on it but what the heck, free fork service, I am in)

After the service he had indicated I would likely use more air pressure to get the same sag. I might be able to drop 5 PSI as i rarely get within an inch of bottom out.

The other consideration is the trails we ride. I am in Vancouver and use the bike for all my mtn biking, which in includes North Shore, Squamish and Vancouver Island. I don't want to have my fork too soft when hitting steep and rough trails.
 

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Glad to hear there are people out there who have had a flawless Mattoc from the start. However, I still think my comments are fair based on my experiences and a number of similar issues I have read about during my forum browsing. I'm not bagging out the Mattoc at all, infact I love mine and would have nothing else.

I've felt what I believed was the bottom of my fork (running into gutters at low pressure) and I measured it at 155mm. I believe someone on this forum or another managed to measure internally the actual travel and came out with a number 5-10mm short of quoted travel.
 

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You won't need air tokens. I have no idea why someone would do that when hydraulic bottom out achieves the same thing, only better. Most people are riding with HBO set to either 1 or 2 (of 5!) so there surely is a lot of tuning to be had to not have to resort to screwing with the air spring volume.
100% agreed. I really don't understand how you could feel the need for bottomless tokens when 1) You have an air sprung fork that is naturally going to be quite progressive at the end of stroke and 2) You have hydraulic bottom out adjustment.
 

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Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.

I haven't felt the need for air tokens with the Mattoc yet, however I may in the future depending on the terrain (I haven't had the fork all that long).
 

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Hello all,
Just to recap, I added the tokens to my Mattoc just for kicks at the start. I had the tokens from my wifes Relevation so for the hell of it I thought that I would try it and see what happens. At 3 tokens this seemed to be my sweet spot with the fork and by chance my bike feels to be well balanced front to rear.
I have the fork on a Sight with an Inline that has 1.5 volume spacers installed.
This set up works for me and my riding style, it might suck for some one else but I don't lend out my bike for any one to feel how "bad" my bike rides.
 

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Air volume spacers do more then increase bottom out resistance; they increase ramp up throughout the entire stroke of the spring. Let's say your fork at standard volume produces 1 units of resistance at 1/3 travel, 2 units at 2/3 travel and 4 units at full travel. Using a spacer that doubles resistance would give you 2 units at 1/3, 4 at 2/3 and 8 at full travel. Long story short - volume spacers let you increase support throughout the stroke, not just at the end.
Adding air alone allows you to increase support throughout the stroke, using the air spring curve that Manitou designed. Then you click in the hydraulic bottom out adjustment if you're bottoming out the fork, or leave it on the lightest setting if you aren't.

The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.

Is it good or bad to do so? Depends on if you think they did a good job to start with. :D
 

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Regarding my air pressure being lower than others my riding weight - probably my shock pump is not that accurate and is reading low. That would be the easiest explanation.

Another explanation could be that my fork has more stiction than others. Hopefully that's not it...
 

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The problem of adding tokens is exactly what you said. It makes the air spring more progressive. This makes an air spring curve that no longer matches the damper curves in the way Manitou intended.
Nail on the head.
A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
HBO does this perfectly on it's own.

So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.

Manitou have done an excellent job at making a fork simple, and an outstanding damper that makes it all shine.

Personally I wish they'd put the Air valve at the top, and just put an "equalise" button on the footnut to equalise the negative chamber. This would also give the ability to "tune" the negative pressure on its own.

It's just such a shame that the simple job of putting it together in a factory seems to have not identified the critical flaws of improperly set poppet valves, and having too much oil in the air chamber.

Scar
 

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Nail on the head.
A more progressive air spring causes a much un-wanted increase in forces required to dampen when at full compression.
Normally this is done when the compression damper isn't really man enough to deal with the big impact bottom out, so relies on the air spring curve to make sure it never bottoms hard.
HBO does this perfectly on it's own.

So in a nut shell with the Volume spacers you might also want to take the rebound shimstack out and add in an extra shim at the high speed end to stop the forks rebound bucking when deep in the travel.

Manitou have done an excellent job at making a fork simple, and an outstanding damper that makes it all shine.

Personally I wish they'd put the Air valve at the top, and just put an "equalise" button on the footnut to equalise the negative chamber. This would also give the ability to "tune" the negative pressure on its own.

It's just such a shame that the simple job of putting it together in a factory seems to have not identified the critical flaws of improperly set poppet valves, and having too much oil in the air chamber.

Scar
- I think what you're trying to say is the return force is increased and requires more high speed rebound damping. That's true, but the same thing applies if you add more air to the shock. The rebound stack is really only tuned for a single value, probably a ~160lb rider with the low speed rebound needle set to the middle of it's range. So as soon as you deviate from that it's a moot point anyway.

- Manitou has stated they're developing air volume spacers for the Mattoc. There's a reason why.
 
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