[db_Is_Me]

Hey

Been looking at some Manitou forks, and some of them have a Kwik-toggle damper. It's described on the Manitou Technology page as Based on our Absolute Plus compression damper, Kwik Toggle achieves on-off lockout simplicity in a lightweight, cost-effective package.

I did a search and couldn't find anything much about kwik-toggle. OK, I get that they only have on/off lockout and have no adjustability/tuning like the ABS+ damper shim stack.

But I'm wondering if anyone has ridden one and has any impressions, or especially if they have compared it to the ABS+ damper.

Thanks

 

[Dougal]

It's basically a cheaper version than ABS+, but it's made to not be dismantled and revalved.

ABS+ is a drop-in upgrade if you want to revalve.

Here they are side by side on our instagram page: http://instagr.am/p/BKWyn9vDOtR/

 

[db_Is_Me]

A little follow up. Before I start, I have varied terrain, sand over hard, cobblestone like sections (my own Paris-Roubaix!), sandstone outcrops. I'd say it's non-technical, but there is very little smooth riding, and also very little in terms of drops. So, I prize plush and comfort over some other factors. 30mm stanchions? No problem! 100mm travel? No problem!

I ended up buying a Markhor fork with the Kwik-toggle. It performs fairly well for a basic air fork. I had a RockShox Recon Gold and would rate them about the same over my typical trails. I think the Recon Gold is a touch lighter, but not noticeable in riding. Though, I would not class either as 'plush'...

I have previously had a Manitou R7 Pro that had the ABS+ damper and that was great for my riding. It really soaked up a lot of the terrain far more than the two above. I didn't even bother messing with the standard XC shim stack. It's also the reason I went Manitou again. But the Markhor did not feel like my R7 did. Mmmmm. I'm looking at you kwik-toggle damper. :nono:

Manitou has listed the part number for the ABS+ upgrade for the Markhor in the manual as 141-26532-K001. It is the same part as the R7 damper, so you can search for that as well.

So, I bit the bullet and have done the upgrade. Oil level for the ABS+ is 83mm, so had to add a touch of oil. I haven't fully dialled things in, but the small bump compliance, especially at low speed is greatly improved. I remember why I loved that R7.

Night. And. Day. :thumbsup:

I am probably being a bit too harsh on the Markhor/Kwik-Toggle combination. I'm sure in many other riding conditions it is great, and an ABS+ upgrade may not make much sense. For me, it is definitely a worthwhile upgrade.

Or you could always just buy a Manitou fork that has ABS+ in it to start with :madman:

Cheers

 

[Dougal]

Kwik Toggle is the basic damper. It's not intended to compete with the (awesome) ABS+

 

[Dennyyh2010]

How difficult was the upgrade from Kwik Toggle to ABS+? I am looking to upgrade my Machete. I have the service manual but they go through gutting the rebound damper and all, but I am guessing that is not necessary? Did you need any special tools? It mentions a Manitou Cassette tool and a thin 1 inch socket I believe.

 

[Dougal]

How difficult was the upgrade from Kwik Toggle to ABS+? I am looking to upgrade my Machete. I have the service manual but they go through gutting the rebound damper and all, but I am guessing that is not necessary? Did you need any special tools? It mentions a Manitou Cassette tool and a thin 1 inch socket I believe.

Unscrew Kwik-toggle from the top, check and set oil level (air gap height above oil). Screw in ABS+ damper.

It's a 10 minute job if you have everything there ready to go.

 

[Busta Chan]

Hi,
I took some pictures from the ABS+ and the Kwik damper side by side and figured I might as well share them:

BC

 

[Busta Chan]

One note on the Kwik damper. Looks like it is possible to re-shim Kwik up to a certain extend. (Not to often as the inverted spider clamp wears out...):

My Kwik damper had 3 x 20x0.2 shims.

The check shim / plate used for the lockout can also be flipped. I have not tried it as I am happy with the ABS+ damper.
Has anybody tried this?

Cheers,
BC

 

[Zomb1e]

Rather old thread, but still useful. It seems that nobody tried reshiming of kwik toggle damper, so let me be the first one. If you look closely to photos in posts above, you could notice that shim stack of our damper consists of 4, not 3 shims. The last one is so called clamp shim and it is located above main shims. So our damper have this structure:

top cap
damper body and shaft
12x10x0.4mm clamp shim
21x10x0.2mm main shims - 3 pcs
valve

Factory shim stack is stiff and preloaded one, and preload is created by uplifted border on the surface of valve. This means that in lock position very high oil pressure needed to crack open this shim stack, and that's why we have quite solid lockout. But it also means that we have rather big HSC (high speed compression) level in open mode.

Shaft have diameter of 13 mm and OD (outer diameter) of clamp shim is 12 mm. So shaft itself can be a clamp and our clamp shim can be placed anywhere else as preload reducer shim. With a bit bigger diameter of shaft than clamp shim's OD it means that a bit more force will be needed to deform shims to the same amount, but actually it wouldn't be even noticeable.

So if you are a lightweight XC rider and you want to reduce platform in lockout mode, you may just take away one of 3 main shims.

But if you want to have more support and compression in "lock" position instead of true lockout, your option is repositioning of clamp shim. You can get "trail" or "linear" shim stacks as they are called in Manitou's ABS+ tuning guide. Here are couple of examples.

1. "Trail" - minimal platform with high compression:
21x10x0.2mm
21x10x0.2mm
12x10x0.4mm
21x10x0.2mm
valve

This shim stack looks like crossover one, but actually it is not. Clamp shim which is now used as preload reducer have nearly the same thickness as valve border height. So lowest shim is preloaded and creates a platform, but there is zero gap (on the edge) between it and upper two shims, which are not preloaded now due to 12x10x0.4mm preload reducer shim. You can put 2 main shims below preload reducer and one above if you want more stiff platform.

2. "Linear" - no platform, high compression
21x10x0.2mm
21x10x0.2mm
21x10x0.2mm
12x10x0.4mm
valve

This shim stack have no preload at all (as I mentioned earlier, preload reducer have nearly the same thickness as valve border height), and main shims will create rather linear compression.

You can make your own shim stacks with lower compression by taking off one of main shims above preload reducing shim. Unfortunately you can't use ABS+ shim stacks due to difference in OD and ID.

Keep in mind that reshiming affects HSC in both locked and open modes.

The last thing that I want to mention: as kwik toggle damper have no fixed positions when you are using it without remote, you can just put a rubber O-ring under the lever (I've used 28x3.1mm). This will make rotation rather firm, but lever will remain exactly in that position where you leaved it regardless of how gnarly your trails are.

 

[Globster]

Oh wow, thank you, great timing!

Yesterday I decided to service my M30 fork with this KT damper and once I removed compression part of it, I noticed that valve cap (bottom one) is missing from the damper assembly. As it appears it got unscrewed and stayed inside with it's shims. Once I pulled it out from the fork, I tried to google in what order this shims supposed to be and today I found out that this thread has a new comment and it excactly what I need, thank you again

I'll try "trail" stack (big-small-big) but my damper is a bit different from the others here, it doesn't have a third big shim (21x10x0.2mm) from the box, only two of them with the third smaller one.

Oh yeah, I also think that valve got unscrewed during disassemble proccess since the fork was working perfectly fine.

 

[Zomb1e]

I also think that valve got unscrewed during disassemble proccess since the fork was working perfectly fine.

Yes, you are right. I've got the same on my Markhor fork, and this is due to very tight fit of O-ring between valve and fork tube (both top cap and damper's body shaft are right-threaded).
Please write down your impressions about re-shimmed stack after test ride. Note, that with this "trail" stack you'll no longer have rock-solid lockout.

 

[Globster]

Please write down your impressions about re-shimmed stack after test ride. Note, that with this "trail" stack you'll no longer have rock-solid lockout.

I'll add a notification on my phone to not forget about it, because my first ride will be sometime in spring most likely

Not so stiff lockout sounds good to me, cause I think it's too stiff for my weight in the first place.

 

[elyboi]

One note on the Kwik damper. Looks like it is possible to re-shim Kwik up to a certain extend. (Not to often as the inverted spider clamp wears out...):
View attachment 1299107

My Kwik damper had 3 x 20x0.2 shims.

The check shim / plate used for the lockout can also be flipped. I have not tried it as I am happy with the ABS+ damper.
Has anybody tried this?

View attachment 1299109
View attachment 1299111

Cheers,
BC

hey do you know where to put the shims, they fell out of the fork when opening it up and we dont know what to do with them

 

[Zomb1e]

hey do you know where to put the shims, they fell out of the fork when opening it up and we dont know what to do with them

See photo in my post above - all parts of damper are shown in order of assembling (from top to bottom). Shims should be placed on damper's body shaft (black) above valve (green).

 

[elyboi]

See photo in my post above - all parts of damper are shown in order of assembling (from top to bottom). Shims should be placed on damper's body shaft (black) above valve (green).

so like this? the 0.4mm shim is on the bottom with the 3 0.2mm ones on top but seems too loose.

 

[elyboi]

See photo in my post above - all parts of damper are shown in order of assembling (from top to bottom). Shims should be placed on damper's body shaft (black) above valve (green).

also on second look it seems like you removed the valve, how do we do that?

 

[Zomb1e]

so like this? the 0.4mm shim is on the bottom with the 3 0.2mm ones on top but seems too loose.

OMG, no! Please read the whole thread carefully - there is all information that you need. Plate with spring located on the bottom of the valve, shim stack located on the top of it.
Look at last photo in this post: Manitou Kwik-toggle damper anyone?
And don't forget to place clamp shim (12x10x0.4mm) above main shims

 

[elyboi]

OMG, no! Please read the whole thread carefully - there is all information that you need. Plate with spring located on the bottom of the valve, shim stack located on the top of it.
Look at last photo in this post: Manitou Kwik-toggle damper anyone?
And don't forget to place clamp shim (12x10x0.4mm) above main shims

alright so we did it like you said and i also got a really good diagram that shows it from manitou