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is the maestro system just another VPP setup or is it really something new & different? and what are the differences if any?
The reason I ask is because I am looking for a freestyle bike that can handle jumps as well as drops and alot of the people I talked to about the VPP bikes say they dont jump as well due to the sag and the arc the suspension follows absorbs alot of the initial lift you get leaving the ramp.But I want a bike that pedals well too.

after 3 and a half years on an NRS2 with no real problems I am really happy with Giants quality and craftsmanship even though I'm not exactly crazy about the local dealer service , and I am seriously considering the Faith or Reign for my next bike

can anyone offer any insight into these bikes?
 

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mtbr remember
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Wheelpaths are different, therefore making them different designs. VPP is supposed to be an "S" shape I believe. I could be wrong, but I think the wheelpath of the Maestro's, not sure if it's all of them or not, don't want to post any misleading info, but the wheelpath is similar to an FSR, but more efficient I believe.
The reason a lot of people rip the VPP's for jumping is because they give a dead feel when going off a lip or pumping a rhythm, so there is not feel, or much feedback, or however you want to explain it. But, I haven't ridden, not to mention jumped a Maestro, so I can't help you there, don't know if they give the same sagging, dead feel. It's not that the dull feeling is necessarily holding you back, I've seen many people on Free/V10's go huge w/ no problem, so I guess it's mostly preference or getting used to the feeling/bike.
Again, I don't want to throw anybody off, but personally, I avoid buying anything in it's first year of production, too many recalls/bugs to be worked out since most of them were rushing to debut the production models on time. I to have had good luck w/ Giant, they offer a lot of bang for the buck, and there is a lot of buzz around this new Maestro design too, so check it out, and good luck. ;)
 

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NRSguy said:
is the maestro system just another VPP setup or is it really something new & different? and what are the differences if any?
Any multi-pivot design where the rear wheel is mounted to a sub-structure that is not also attached to a pivot, including horst-link 4-bar, VPP, etc., employs a moving or "virtual" pivot. These are all essentially adaptations of the "dual wishbone" aka "parallelogram" design used in car suspension for the past 60 years. The idea is you have a lower link (the "swingarm" in a horst-link/FSR type bike), an upper link (the little "rocker" in a horst/FSR bike), and the other two "bars" of a 4-bar design are the structure that fixes the rear wheel, and the frame. If you can imagine, the FSR/horst design has a lower link ("swingarm") that is much longer than the upper link ("rocker"). This causes the axle to move towards the center of the bike on compression... the "virtual" pivot moves downwards as the suspension compresses.

On a typical VPP bike, the lower link is very short. If the lower link is shorter than the upper link, as on a Schwinn Rocket88, then the axle actually moves away from the center of the bike on compression (generally... it's a compound-curved path). If the lower and upper links are the same effective length, then the axle will move essentially vertically (as in Giant Maestro). Santa Cruz Blur uses a near-vertical axle path intended to have a slight "arc" inwards at a point about 25% into the travel so that chain tension will tend to pull it into a sweet spot. In fact the Maestro suspension, Rocket88, and other short-lower-link designs will almost all do this same thing.

The Maestro is then effectively "just another VPP design", but so is the FSR/horst-link design, the so-called "Instant Center Tracking" design (adapted horst-link) used by Ellsworth, and pretty much any other multi-link suspension design. You basically have single-pivot, multi-link (VPP-type), and fake-multi-link (any 4-bar suspension without a horst link, or in other words, any 4-bar suspension with the rear dropout mounted on the swingarm as in Jamis, Kona, etc.). The fake-multi-link performs identically to single pivot with low-pivot.

FWIW in reality the FSR/horst suspension design (yes also including the Giant NRS) tends to basically perform just like a single pivot only the pivot moves a little bit. However, it still causes shortening of wheelbase on compression, which in turn causes chain tension to tend to compress.
 

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Linkage program

I don't know if I'm posting something everyone else knows or not, but there is a cool program created by a very clever guy at
http://www.extra.hu/linkage/
This is a pretty nifty program that lets you see a whole bunch of things from an array of suspension designs. It was mentioned in a few other posts:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=3754&highlight=linkage2
and this one is particularly helpful to this discussion:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=69385
I am yet to master this program. It has some designs already configured, and allows you to add more based on importing a picture of the bike then highlighting the pivot points etc. I havent yet entered in any of the maestro designs, but do plan to when i get a chance to sit down and play with this program. If anybody already has entered the maestro's it would be great to get a hold of those files. (PM me with them and I can host it on a very basic website if you want)
Good luck with the program
 

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"El Whatever"
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joshanonymous said:
I don't know if I'm posting something everyone else knows or not, but there is a cool program created by a very clever guy at
http://www.extra.hu/linkage/
This is a pretty nifty program that lets you see a whole bunch of things from an array of suspension designs. It was mentioned in a few other posts:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=3754&highlight=linkage2
and this one is particularly helpful to this discussion:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=69385
I am yet to master this program. It has some designs already configured, and allows you to add more based on importing a picture of the bike then highlighting the pivot points etc. I havent yet entered in any of the maestro designs, but do plan to when i get a chance to sit down and play with this program. If anybody already has entered the maestro's it would be great to get a hold of those files. (PM me with them and I can host it on a very basic website if you want)
Good luck with the program
I'll post'em tomorrow.... I have the Reign and I guess the Faith too... I'll toss in a SC V11 too.
 

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I agree with Satori. I see where Giant is trying to go with this design but I'm not sold on it just yet. As far as your question about which model to go with I think if you're gonna do any free riding at all I would definately be lookin for 6 inches of travel or more. The Faith is the obvious choice for that riding style not to mention (if you got the bread) the Faith 1 comes with a Marzocchi 66 up front and a Fox DHX in the rear which is a VERY sweet combo. Same set up I run on my AC for downhill. Very plush, progressive feel and totally indestructable. Also the Faith has a little more logical linkage design for hardcore riding. Thats the only model I would put my money into until like Satori said, Giant has a chance to "work any kinks out". A longer travel bike is a totally different riding style than your NRS but you'll love bein able to bomb over rugged terrain and jumps.

p.s. I've blown a gas shock before
and F.Y.I nitrogen gets VERY
HOT when it expands. Gas shocks
and big drops don't mix. Stick with
a coil shock for freeride.
 

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2010 Glory custom FR
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Warp2003, could you pls briefly explain me what do these pictures show, proove?
is Faith suspension good? ok, or poor?... I already ordered F2 ;)
 

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"El Whatever"
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frango said:
Warp2003, could you pls briefly explain me what do these pictures show, proove?
is Faith suspension good? ok, or poor?... I already ordered F2 ;)
First take a look at the wheelpath graph. That's how your wheel is to move during the stroke. If you see, the first part of travel is rearwards, which is good for small bump compliance, then the wheel falls into a "pocket" (where the lower link reaches maximum extension) where any bump will move the swingarm towards the rider and the chain forces tend to "extend" the shock and preventing bob. There's some small degree of pedal feddback (very low though). There's an additional advance in this; the wheel base becomes slightly longer helping stability.

From that point and towards the end of the travel the wheel starts to move towards the rider copying in a certain way the movement of the front wheel and thus keeping your weight centered, which in turn means you need less body english when facing obstacles.

In the end.... I do not FR, so I wouldn't know how good it would be on a lip, but as for bumps or pure hucking looks good from here and also seems to be easily pedaleable. This designs seems to be plush, relatively bob-free and very versatile.

You can post this question on the DH forum where there are serious suspensions gurus (I'm an amateur for these matters, even though I'm Mechanical Engineer I'm in the Construction / Commercial bussines and the closest I've been to suspension analysis is setting-up my bike, more complicated calculation/modeling I've worked is an spreadsheet :D )

Hope it helps...
 

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"El Whatever"
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VooDoo13 said:
p.s. I've blown a gas shock before
and F.Y.I nitrogen gets VERY
HOT when it expands. Gas shocks
and big drops don't mix. Stick with
a coil shock for freeride.
Very cold you mean.... all gases cold-up when expanding... nitrogen, LPG, CO2, LNG are potentianlly dangerous at expansion because when they change from liquid to gas they reach cryo temperatures....

That said, I don't think the going from 300 psi to 0 psi in less than one second, would make gaseous gas to change temp a lot. Maybe a couple degrees. I might be wrong. But if you felt a burn from a nitro blow-up, remember extreme cold feels like burning...
 

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Shock Blowout

Warp2003 said:
Very cold you mean.... all gases cold-up when expanding... nitrogen, LPG, CO2, LNG are potentianlly dangerous at expansion because when they change from liquid to gas they reach cryo temperatures....

That said, I don't think the going from 300 psi to 0 psi in less than one second, would make gaseous gas to change temp a lot. Maybe a couple degrees. I might be wrong. But if you felt a burn from a nitro blow-up, remember extreme cold feels like burning...
You're probably right about the physics of expanding gases but I do know for sure that the insides of my legs and calves were pretty damned burnt after it blew. Point still remains....big hucks - coil shocks.
 

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gases

VooDoo13 said:
You're probably right about the physics of expanding gases but I do know for sure that the insides of my legs and calves were pretty damned burnt after it blew. Point still remains....big hucks - coil shocks.
It could have just been the continual movement/compression heating up the shock, compressing a gas will heat it up (like when pumping up a tyre) then the overheating eventually may have caused it to fail, and the outer case of the shock was still hot just after it blew. There would need to be a lot of expanding gas (almost zero probability of it happening in real life) in there to make it get cool enough to burn. Thats just my thoughts, but still, lets leave the physics and get back to bikes!
 

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thx Warp2003, it really helped... it seems F2 will be a very good replacemet for my good-old S8 :)
 

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Warp2003 said:
First take a look at the wheelpath graph. That's how your wheel is to move during the stroke. If you see, the first part of travel is rearwards, which is good for small bump compliance, then the wheel falls into a "pocket" (where the lower link reaches maximum extension) where any bump will move the swingarm towards the rider and the chain forces tend to "extend" the shock and preventing bob. There's some small degree of pedal feddback (very low though). There's an additional advance in this; the wheel base becomes slightly longer helping stability.

From that point and towards the end of the travel the wheel starts to move towards the rider copying in a certain way the movement of the front wheel and thus keeping your weight centered, which in turn means you need less body english when facing obstacles.

In the end.... I do not FR, so I wouldn't know how good it would be on a lip, but as for bumps or pure hucking looks good from here and also seems to be easily pedaleable. This designs seems to be plush, relatively bob-free and very versatile.

You can post this question on the DH forum where there are serious suspensions gurus (I'm an amateur for these matters, even though I'm Mechanical Engineer I'm in the Construction / Commercial bussines and the closest I've been to suspension analysis is setting-up my bike, more complicated calculation/modeling I've worked is an spreadsheet :D )

Hope it helps...
Hi Warp,
Thanks for the explanation. I will look on the DH forums too, but since you have the program...and I want to compare apples to apple. Can you do a wheelpath graph for a 4 bar like a FSR Enduro or a Turner 5 spot and a single pivot like the Santa Cruz Bullit?
 

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"El Whatever"
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Hanzo90802 said:
Hi Warp,
Thanks for the explanation. I will look on the DH forums too, but since you have the program...and I want to compare apples to apple. Can you do a wheelpath graph for a 4 bar like a FSR Enduro or a Turner 5 spot and a single pivot like the Santa Cruz Bullit?
Ooooops!!!

Sorry but I didn't see your post until now. My apologies. I'll post the graphs later this week (I'm kinda busy now).
 

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"El Whatever"
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SuperNewb said:
Ever try seeing the difference between the Reign and Ironhorse MKIII?
Yup, but I haven't found a pic from the right side of any IH, which is what Linkage needs to work.

Besides, you won't find much of a difference. I'll keep on searching pics of the KMIII
 

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Warp2003 said:
Ooooops!!!

Sorry but I didn't see your post until now. My apologies. I'll post the graphs later this week (I'm kinda busy now).
no problem. I pretty much have my mind made up that I'm getting a Trance or Reign. I have to sell my Bullit first and I wanted to see the difference between the bikes. Actually, I downloaded that program and the Bullit and Enduro is in there. The only one that isnt in there already is the 5 spot.

Thanks!
 
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