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Discussion Starter #1
First-world problem here. This is going to be a little terse - I wrote a much more eloquent version but my browser dropped a pop up on me that blew the web page cage - here goes:

I'm no racer, but I spend a lot of time doing long grinds up fire roads. One of my favorite bikes for that kind of riding is a rigid XC bike that weighs a little under 19.4 pounds. I'm sure it's not the lightest thing, but considering that it's more than half a pound lighter than my first serious road bike, I'm pretty happy with it. I recently decided to treat it to a refresh to Shimano 12 speed on the drivetrain.

Here's the thing: I really want totally quiet hubs. I've packed plenty of grease in an American Classic Hub before, and I've tried Project 321 with the quiet pawls. They're reasonably quiet, but just not what I'm looking for. I recently built up a wheel with an Onyx Vesper on my enduro bike and this was "It". I totally fell in love with it. The silence feels like it came from the future and really spoiled me for pawls.

So, the issue is obvious: I look at all the expensive and exotic bits on my XC bike and my head says, "Man, it would be a shame to throw on that much extra weight on bike like this." while my heart says, "It would be so nice to have that same glassy-smooth experience on this bike too."

I've first-world struggled with this choice for weeks and figure at this point I might as well seek some outside perspective. What are your thoughts?
 

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This is the early stages of some sort of mental illness.

You'll never ever notice if you add a couple hundred grams to the rear hub, but you'll notice the silence and enjoy the ride more, so.... duh...

Does your bike have disc brakes? Well...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This is the early stages of some sort of mental illness.
Classy, thanks. :p

You'll never ever notice if you add a couple hundred grams to the rear hub, but you'll notice the silence and enjoy the ride more, so.... duh...

Does your bike have disc brakes? Well...
The difference is disc brakes are objectively/functionally better for the added weight. The hub is only subjectively better.

That said, yeah - I think I would enjoy the ride more, so there's that. Thank you.
 

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Classy, thanks. :p



The difference is disc brakes are objectively/functionally better for the added weight. The hub is only subjectively better.

That said, yeah - I think I would enjoy the ride more, so there's that. Thank you.
I think the disc brakes are a fair comparison. You've decided that they're worth the extra weight, as most have, but your preference for disc brakes isn't any more objective than any other preference that has been almost universally accepted as increasing the enjoyment of the ride for most people even with a slight weight penalty, such as a dropper post on a trail-bike. Discs are heavier, more expensive, and require more specialized tools and supplies to service, and going back to v-brakes on a gravel grinder isn't going to diminish your ride quality in some significant way. They aren't objectively better, even if most of us wouldn't consider going back to the lighter v-brakes at this point. They just have pros and cons. A FS bike isn't objectively better for every situation than a hardtail, but it has very obvious advantages for certain situations or riders.

The decision is obvious... you know that you'd enjoy riding the bike more with the silent hub, because of your subjective preferences, and the only reason you are hesitating is some neurosis about a number on a scale.
 

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Cleavage Of The Tetons
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You could try and find some XTR silent microspline hubs...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think the disc brakes are a fair comparison. You've decided that they're worth the extra weight, as most have, but your preference for disc brakes isn't any more objective than any other preference that has been almost universally accepted as increasing the enjoyment of the ride for most people even with a slight weight penalty, such as a dropper post on a trail-bike.
If you think dropper posts and disc brakes are only subjectively superior to seatpost quick releases and V-brakes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 

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If you think dropper posts and disc brakes are only subjectively superior to seatpost quick releases and V-brakes, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Do you even know what "subjective" means?

Ya, fixed posts and v-brakes are objectively superior because they weigh less. Also, suspension forks are objectively superior to your rigid fork because they aren't rigid.

Now I think I'm beginning to understand why this has been such a difficult dilemma for you to overcome. If your bike is subjectively more enjoyable for you to ride, but it weighs 19.6lbs instead of 19.4, is it actually more enjoyable? Quite the pickle. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Do you even know what "subjective" means?
Yes, I know exactly what subjective means. Do you know what reading comprehension means? I was very explicit in my original statement when I said "... objectively/functionally better for the added weight".

Anyway, I'm done engaging with your trolling. Have a nice life.
 

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Yes, I know exactly what subjective means. Do you know what reading comprehension means? I was very explicit in my original statement when I said "... objectively/functionally better for the added weight".

Anyway, I'm done engaging with your trolling. Have a nice life.
Have a nice life... lol. Dramatic much? I hope you can resolve this soon. Please be sure to update us when you make a decision. Awaiting your response with bated breath.
 

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First-world problem here. This is going to be a little terse - I wrote a much more eloquent version but my browser dropped a pop up on me that blew the web page cage - here goes:

I'm no racer, but I spend a lot of time doing long grinds up fire roads. One of my favorite bikes for that kind of riding is a rigid XC bike that weighs a little under 19.4 pounds. I'm sure it's not the lightest thing, but considering that it's more than half a pound lighter than my first serious road bike, I'm pretty happy with it. I recently decided to treat it to a refresh to Shimano 12 speed on the drivetrain.

Here's the thing: I really want totally quiet hubs. I've packed plenty of grease in an American Classic Hub before, and I've tried Project 321 with the quiet pawls. They're reasonably quiet, but just not what I'm looking for. I recently built up a wheel with an Onyx Vesper on my enduro bike and this was "It". I totally fell in love with it. The silence feels like it came from the future and really spoiled me for pawls.

So, the issue is obvious: I look at all the expensive and exotic bits on my XC bike and my head says, "Man, it would be a shame to throw on that much extra weight on bike like this." while my heart says, "It would be so nice to have that same glassy-smooth experience on this bike too."

I've first-world struggled with this choice for weeks and figure at this point I might as well seek some outside perspective. What are your thoughts?
I've ridden Onyx and they are very nice, but not worth the weight penalty to me (and the Vespers are unreliable so that's out) and my bike weighs 50% more than yours. P321 was the correct compromise for my only bike that does it all.
For a XC grinder, I'd buy Extralite hubs just like I did for my wife's bike. Your experience may vary.
Someday I'll build a DC bike and show you mofo's how it's done! ;)
 

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I'm a ww on everything but my rear hub. I say go for the Vespers. I haven't had a problem with them on my mountain or road bike.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I've ridden Onyx and they are very nice, but not worth the weight penalty to me (and the Vespers are unreliable so that's out) and my bike weighs 50% more than yours. P321 was the correct compromise for my only bike that does it all.
I'm definitely taking a bit of a risk on the enduro bike with it, but the worst Vesper reliability problem I'm aware of seems to be the axle falling out of the body when the wheel is off the bike. That's bad, but I'm not aware of that being a current issue today. Thanks for your input!

For a XC grinder, I'd buy Extralite hubs just like I did for my wife's bike. Your experience may vary.
Someday I'll build a DC bike and show you mofo's how it's done! ;)
Ok I give, what's a "DC" bike? Google is coming up blank.
 

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Vesper's don't take high torque well. They slip and I personally know people that this has happened to.

DC = Down Country. Not quite XC, not quite trail.
 

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Have you thought about Shimano silent clutch hubs? I have a couple of sets of XTRs ones and they are pretty cool. Not the lightest hub in existence but a long way from heavy.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Have you thought about Shimano silent clutch hubs? I have a couple of sets of XTRs ones and they are pretty cool. Not the lightest hub in existence but a long way from heavy.
Yes, "rideit" mentioned them. I'm just a little leery about them given that Shimano quietly abandoned the technology. If they were still in production it would probably be the perfect choice.
 

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That's definitely concerning - did Onyx take care of them?



Got it, thanks for clarifying. :thumbsup:
There are videos and posts of multiple people with this issue in the Vesper thread. Not sure if the issue has been resolved or not because I'll likely never own Vesper's so quit paying attention. The P321s are lighter, roll better, are more reliable, and have effectively identical engagement for less money. I don't care about the light noise from P321s, don't even hear it while riding.
Instant engagement, while nice, is a bit overrated imo. Some will even argue it's a negative due to pedal kick back.

My opinion when considering the Pros and Cons, for man sized strength and weight, P321s for trail/ Enduro. Extralites for XC. And for a small female like my wife, Extralites for everything. Also my wife really likes the noise Extralites adds, as she feels it offers security/ warning she is coming. Also, those Extralites roll really well.
 

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I think the disc brakes are a fair comparison. You've decided that they're worth the extra weight, as most have, but your preference for disc brakes isn't any more objective than any other preference that has been almost universally accepted as increasing the enjoyment of the ride for most people even with a slight weight penalty, such as a dropper post on a trail-bike. Discs are heavier, more expensive, and require more specialized tools and supplies to service, and going back to v-brakes on a gravel grinder isn't going to diminish your ride quality in some significant way. They aren't objectively better, even if most of us wouldn't consider going back to the lighter v-brakes at this point. They just have pros and cons. A FS bike isn't objectively better for every situation than a hardtail, but it has very obvious advantages for certain situations or riders.

The decision is obvious... you know that you'd enjoy riding the bike more with the silent hub, because of your subjective preferences, and the only reason you are hesitating is some neurosis about a number on a scale.
^this, well said.
 
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