[ocnLogan]

After two or three years of slowly assembling parts, I'm ready to start looking for a frame to complete my build. And in my indecision, I just thought I'd check in and see what some complete strangers on the internet thought of the "shortlist" I'm considering now.

I'm ~195-200lbs with gear, 6'1", and a 36.5in inseam, and live in the greater Seattle area of the PNW. So I'm looking for an "enduro/aggressive trail bike". There may be occasional park riding, but mostly I'll be at places like Galbraith, Tokul, Raging River, Tiger, and some other smaller local places. I'm probably on the upper end of the intermediate skill level. I ride pretty much every feature on most blue trails locally, and have been dabbling in black trails over the last few months.

For what its worth, I've been riding for 3 years, and am currently on the same 2018 Kona Process 153 29'er that I started with. Its been pretty good for me over the years, but I have found I think its a smidge small for me though, so I'm looking to grow the bike a bit, and find something with a steeper STA (the kona has a very slack ~67 degree actual STA, which isn't ideal with my leg length) and that I think I want the chainstays to be longer for better fore/aft balance for my next bike.

I'm looking for feedback on any of these bikes. And bonus points you've ridden more than one of them, I'd love to hear about how you would compare them:

• Privateer 161- $1760
  • Pros: Inexpensive, good geo, should be durable/reliable.
  • Cons: STA might be a bit steep, also making the ETT too cramped? Impossible to demo. Reviews confusingly say this is a "full gas" bike, but bikes like the Sentinel and Spire which have more extreme numbers, are praised for being pretty well rounded? Seems like the STA is really the only thing that stands out about its geo these days.
• Specialized Stumpjumper Evo Alloy- $1900
  • Pros: Super adjustable geo, gets great reviews. I might actually be able to find one, and it seems like it would be a good platform to figure out "what" I like on a bike (ie, can fiddle with HTA, CS length, BB height, etc).
  • Cons: The stock shock might not be great, I hear bad things about yoke driven shocks like that, and I might be on the heavier side for it to work properly?
• Propain Spindrift/Tyee- $1700-1900 (estimated based on conversion of UK pricing, to USD, official USD price isn't announced yet)
  • Pros: Apparently they climb/feel like much smaller travel bikes, and are incredibly efficient. Additional bearing sealing sounds good for PNW, and might make for a great "daily driver" big bike.
  • Cons: I'm kind of between sizes. And... will the alloy model ever actually go on sale (emails with them say yes... but I've been waiting for over a year)
• Transition Sentinel - $2100
  • Pros: Demo-able (I'm somewhat local to the Transition HQ), gets good reviews.
  • Cons: Worried about the F/R balance on these some, as they have both a long FC (slack HTA), and shorter chainstays/non size specific chainstays. So it "should" (on paper) be even more imbalanced than my current Kona.
• Transition Spire- $2300
  • Pros: Same as the Sentinel (demoable, good reviews), and all the reviews/user feedback I make it sound like the bike rides like a smaller travel bike, which then sounds like if you're going for a fairly big bike like the Sentinel... why not go all the way and grab the Spire?
  • Cons: Price is getting up there, and the HIGH position gets you a 63 degree HTA... might that just be a bit too much?
• Banshee Titan- $2500
  • Pros: Gorgeous (that raw with the slight tint to the clear coat....), and gets good reviews.
  • Cons: Can't demo, price has increased a lot over time, and apparently a lot of people get rear brake howl with larger rotors, the XL has a crazy long seat tube.

Currently the Privateer, and Stumjumper Evo are probably feeling the most likely to me. But depending on the day, and what I'm reading/watching, the others come and go. And there are other bikes I'd love to consider... but are just too spendy (Raaw, Kona Process X), or aren't available in alloy frame only (Rocky Mountain Altitude). So I'm left with the above as the obvious options.

So...

Thoughts?

 

[eb1888]

Couple ideas.
Consider completes. Parts are in such short supply you'll be able to sell the take-offs or some of your stash. Whchever you don't want.
Demo the Transitions now. Because you can and need the info for handling and sizing. Sizing with steeper seat tube angles is going to be different enough from your Kona. You likely won't need longer chainstays to get good balance. You have a short torso. Usually that means size down. More likely with steeper seat tube angles.

 

[ocnLogan]

Couple ideas.
Consider completes. Parts are in such short supply you'll be able to sell the take-offs or some of your stash. Whchever you don't want.
Demo the Transitions now. Because you can and need the info for handling and sizing. Sizing with steeper seat tube angles is going to be different enough from your Kona. You likely won't need longer chainstays to get good balance. You have a short torso. Usually that means size down. More likely with steeper seat tube angles.

Appreciate the feedback.

I think I’m set on buying a frame only at the moment. My situation is kind of bizzare. My employeer gives all the employees some money every year for fitness related expenses to help promote staying in shape (and reduce insurance premiums I'm sure). And a few years back they expanded that program and it includes bikes, and bike parts. So over the course of the past few years, I've been slowly assembling all the parts that I need for a new build. So at this point, I've got every part I need other than things that could be unique to the new bike (basically the dropper post, I won't know which size to get until I choose the frame).

I do need to go demo. Transitions HQ is just far enough away that it’s inconvenient, so it keeps getting pushed back. It will help for figuring out sizing for sure.

I'm actually worried about downhill cornering performance with the front/rear balance than I am with climbing. I should have made that more clear. But it is true, half of these bikes are both longer in reach than my Kona, but with substantially shorter ETT measurements. So thats going to be an adjustment for sure.

 

[Fuse6F]

i pedalled an evo far enough to know that getting the front end up was dramatically harder due to better front rear balance.

it also felt pretty slack. so it likes some steep stuff and speed as well.


privateer built that bike as a race bike. not for comfort or going slow.

the evo is a more know quantity and better resale. more fun to tweak the settings.

buy a whole bike and sell the parts is a good suggestion.

but cheap specialized bikes have crap wheels and heavy sx drivetrains.

so your pic really.

i think you would have a good time on a slash too


ett shouldnt get smaller, just the reach is being stetched.

you probably want an s5, maybe s6

 

[KRob]

No experience with any of the bikes on your list, but I’ve been intrigued by the Privateer since the favorable review in the Beta Tests.

Your list is quite different from mine a year ago, but maybe you’re looking for a slightly longer travel bike than I was.

Here was my top four:
Knolly Fugitive LT
Evil Offering
Guerrilla Gravity Smash
Fezzari La Sal Peak

Note that Knolly now has the longer travel Chilcotin available, Evil has the Wreckoning and GG has the longer travel Gnarvana available all three of which I would consider if I were looking for a longer travel Enduro bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ocnLogan]

i pedalled an evo far enough to know that getting the front end up was dramatically harder due to better front rear balance. It also felt pretty slack. so it likes some steep stuff and speed as well.

privateer built that bike as a race bike. not for comfort or going slow.

the evo is a more know quantity and better resale. more fun to tweak the settings.

buy a whole bike and sell the parts is a good suggestion.

but cheap specialized bikes have crap wheels and heavy sx drivetrains.

so your pic really.

i think you would have a good time on a slash too

ett shouldnt get smaller, just the reach is being stetched. You probably want an s5, maybe s6

What were you comparing the Evo to in this case (ie, it was "dramatically harder" to get the front end up than what other bike)?

We have steeps around here, so thats not a problem. In fact, I'm wanting something slacker than my Kona currently, for those steeps.

Yeah, the Evo's adjustability is probably what is most appealing to me. Its almost like a "test bed", where I could play with things and learn what things I like. Or adjust when I went to new areas (slack for days when I hit the park, or bigger mountains, steeper for local days, stuff like that). The S5 is the size I was mostly considering... although the S4 is potentially doable as well, as its almost identical in reach to my current bike, but with a bit more stack.

The fact that the Privateer was designed as a race bike doesn't bother me though. I'm no racer, but the way I ride is more "I race against my previous times" than it is "lets jump off of all the things". So I imagine it would mesh just fine with me.

And sadly it looks like the Slash isn't available in an Alloy frame only anymore.

No experience with any of the bikes on your list, but I’ve been intrigued by the Privateer since the favorable review in the Beta Tests.

Your list is quite different from mine a year ago, but maybe you’re looking for a slightly longer travel bike than I was.

Here was my top four:
Knolly Fugitive LT
Evil Offering
Guerrilla Gravity Smash
Fezzari La Sal Peak

Note that Knolly now has the longer travel Chilcotin available, Evil has the Wreckoning and GG has the longer travel Gnarvana available all three of which I would consider if I were looking for a longer travel Enduro bike.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct, I'm looking for a longer travel trail/enduro bike. I grew up riding dirt bikes, so even long travel bikes don't look/feel all that huge to me. But its more about finding the right bike, than it is making sure I get 170mm+ of travel or something like that. And honestly, around here, 140-160mm bikes are really common.

I'm currently looking only at normal boost frames. But I've definitely considered the GG Gnarvana/Smash. And the Chilcotin is definitely in the right ballpark. And if a superboost frame is appealing enough, I could get my hubs swapped around.

Yeah, the Privateer 141 has been getting really good reviews pretty much everywhere that reviews it. The Beta MTB tests are right in my backdoor, so if they loved it, thats a good sign honestly. But whats interesting to me is the 161 seems to be perceived as a "race bike". But when you look at the actual numbers... its hardly different than the 141. Its like .5 degree slacker on the HTA, a bit steeper STA, and 5mm different in reach. So currently I'm more thinking the 161... but the 141 is still definitely an option. Just not sure if that 150mm fork would feel like a big step down from my current 170mm.

For kicks, here is my "top list", and my nerdy bike geo chart that I'm using to compare things.

The highlighted rows are so you can easily see how much bigger the bike is than my current kona, its F/R balance ratio, and its Seat tube length. The last one on the bottom is how close it is to my measured RAD, after I fiddled with stem spacers, bar rises, and stem lengths. So you can see I can get all of them to fit me correctly, but some of them (like the S4 Stumjumper Evo) take some pretty tall handlebars, and a fair number of stem spacers. While others would need essentially flat bars, and the shortest stem I could find (the P4 Privateer 161, and XL Spindrift).

 

[Curveball]

It would seem that a Canfield would be worth considering. Lithium or Tilt.

 

[ocnLogan]

It would seem that a Canfield would be worth considering. Lithium or Tilt.

You'd think that. They check pretty much every box. And I hear good things about CBF.

Perhaps I'm overly fixated on it, but the Canfield bikes have the literal worst front/rear center ratios out of any bikes on my list (I literally added data for 29 models, with two sizes each... I might have a problem). I know thats only on paper, but since I can't really demo it either to confirm, I don't know if I want to risk it, as thats actually one of the main things I'm trying to "fix" with the new bike (better balance). So thats why its not on the "short list" above, at least right now.

 

[Fuse6F]

you have done way more work than most....

i assume the values came from

Bike Geometry Calculator - MAD SCIENTIST MTB

A mountain bike geometry calculator for mullet bikes, fork changes, anglesets, etc. Visually compare multiple bikes. Calculate your bike's RAD.

madscientistmtb.com

if you understand what you like and dont like on your current bike, then you can modify its dimensions so your next one works out solving the things you wanted to change.

you wont need to check other bike dimensions except to see if they match what your looking for.

trust your judgement on what you want to change.

 

[ocnLogan]

you have done way more work than most....

i assume the values came from

Bike Geometry Calculator - MAD SCIENTIST MTB

A mountain bike geometry calculator for mullet bikes, fork changes, anglesets, etc. Visually compare multiple bikes. Calculate your bike's RAD.

madscientistmtb.com

if you understand what you like and dont like on your current bike, then you can modify its dimensions so your next one works out solving the things you wanted to change.

you wont need to check other bike dimensions except to see if they match what your looking for.

trust your judgement on what you want to change.

Ha. Yeah, well, when you know ahead of time that you've got a year or two before you can buy the frame you want... and then when covid throws bike supply and demo norms out the window, you try your best to learn as much as you can from the spec sheet (or maybe I just learned I'm good at obsessing) .

And, its even nerdier than that. I actually just used the factory geo charts for everything. And then dusted off my high school trig to write some formulas for all the cockpit fit info (it... had significant dust on it if I'm being honest). The upside of all of this, is that I can now plug in the bikes geo chart, and theoretically know how it should fit me. I did use that calculator to check for modifications though (like what happens to the geo if I overfork the stumpjumper evo, in the steep/low geo position).

Currently the "target" I'm aiming for, is my exact RAD. But... its also up for debate if "RAD" is worth trying to get to exactly.

And even after all that, it doesn't tell me anything about how any of them ride. Usually up here we have a few decent demo events a year, and for the past two years I'd been planning on demoing about everything I could get my hands on. But those were all canceled. So I'm kind of flying blind.

I do just need to go get over to Transition HQ though. As at least that would give me some more data.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I think your bike list is darn good and you probably can't go wrong with any of them.

Like you, I'd never consider a short CS bike on a L or XL. But I'd also be careful about going way too long.

For me, I prefer HL suspension as well.

Room for a 200+ mm long dropper is a must.

GL.

 

[KRob]

What were you comparing the Evo to in this case (ie, it was "dramatically harder" to get the front end up than what other bike)?

We have steeps around here, so thats not a problem. In fact, I'm wanting something slacker than my Kona currently, for those steeps.

Yeah, the Evo's adjustability is probably what is most appealing to me. Its almost like a "test bed", where I could play with things and learn what things I like. Or adjust when I went to new areas (slack for days when I hit the park, or bigger mountains, steeper for local days, stuff like that). The S5 is the size I was mostly considering... although the S4 is potentially doable as well, as its almost identical in reach to my current bike, but with a bit more stack.

The fact that the Privateer was designed as a race bike doesn't bother me though. I'm no racer, but the way I ride is more "I race against my previous times" than it is "lets jump off of all the things". So I imagine it would mesh just fine with me.

And sadly it looks like the Slash isn't available in an Alloy frame only anymore.



Correct, I'm looking for a longer travel trail/enduro bike. I grew up riding dirt bikes, so even long travel bikes don't look/feel all that huge to me. But its more about finding the right bike, than it is making sure I get 170mm+ of travel or something like that. And honestly, around here, 140-160mm bikes are really common.

I'm currently looking only at normal boost frames. But I've definitely considered the GG Gnarvana/Smash. And the Chilcotin is definitely in the right ballpark. And if a superboost frame is appealing enough, I could get my hubs swapped around.

Yeah, the Privateer 141 has been getting really good reviews pretty much everywhere that reviews it. The Beta MTB tests are right in my backdoor, so if they loved it, thats a good sign honestly. But whats interesting to me is the 161 seems to be perceived as a "race bike". But when you look at the actual numbers... its hardly different than the 141. Its like .5 degree slacker on the HTA, a bit steeper STA, and 5mm different in reach. So currently I'm more thinking the 161... but the 141 is still definitely an option. Just not sure if that 150mm fork would feel like a big step down from my current 170mm.

For kicks, here is my "top list", and my nerdy bike geo chart that I'm using to compare things.

The highlighted rows are so you can easily see how much bigger the bike is than my current kona, its F/R balance ratio, and its Seat tube length. The last one on the bottom is how close it is to my measured RAD, after I fiddled with stem spacers, bar rises, and stem lengths. So you can see I can get all of them to fit me correctly, but some of them (like the S4 Stumjumper Evo) take some pretty tall handlebars, and a fair number of stem spacers. While others would need essentially flat bars, and the shortest stem I could find (the P4 Privateer 161, and XL Spindrift).

View attachment 1959949

That's a lot of research. I like the looks of the Spire too. Good luck on your search. There were definitely a few trails we rode on our OR/WA trip this Fall (Predator, PT, Out of the Blue, Showcase Showdown) where a little longer, deeper travel full enduro bike would've been appreciated, but like you say 140-15mm does the job pretty well for most things.

Oh, btw, the GG bikes are 148mm regular boost spacing and it's pretty easy to change the Smash into the Gnarvana if you want more.

 

[Curveball]

That's a lot of research. I like the looks of the Spire too. Good luck on your search. There were definitely a few trails we rode on our OR/WA trip this Fall (Predator, PT, Out of the Blue, Showcase Showdown) where a little longer, deeper travel full enduro bike would've been appreciated, but like you say 140-15mm does the job pretty well for most things.

Oh, btw, the GG bikes are 148mm regular boost spacing and it's pretty easy to change the Smash into the Gnarvana if you want more.

I thought about suggesting GG since that’s what my son and I ride. We really love our bikes and the GG lead times are very good now. However it looks like the OP is focused on alloy bikes. I’m not sure if that’s a hard limit or not.

 

[KRob]

You'd think that. They check pretty much every box. And I hear good things about CBF.

Perhaps I'm overly fixated on it, but the Canfield bikes have the literal worst front/rear center ratios out of any bikes on my list (I literally added data for 29 models, with two sizes each... I might have a problem). I know thats only on paper, but since I can't really demo it either to confirm, I don't know if I want to risk it, as thats actually one of the main things I'm trying to "fix" with the new bike (better balance). So thats why its not on the "short list" above, at least right now.

So when you say "worst" front/rear center ratio, you mean you'd like the front center and rear center more balanced? I know Canfields do tend to have long front center and very short rear centers but I haven't looked at the numbers on the Lithium and Tilt. I do know I loved the short rear center on Riot and also the Evil bikes. That's preferences though.

If balanced is one of your main goals, you should really look at the Chilcotin. I've owned and ridden many Knolly bikes over the past 12 years and that's definitely one of the the things that stands out about them, and I know it's one of the the things Noel really strives to engineer into his bikes.

 

[evasive]

I have a Titan and absolutely love it. But I don’t insist that everyone should like what I do. I’ll admit to being a little Spindrift curious, though. I think it would fit my needs really well.

Go ride the Transition. The Spire is pretty AF. Their retail manager is a really good friend of mine and a solid guy.

If I lived in the desert and rode that kind of terrain every day, I would have a Canfield. The short rear end would be nice for popping ledges and those types of moves. But I live in the northern Rockies, so I don’t.

 

[2021Mach6]

I'd go Privateer cause that's what excites me most on that list. Something different and good value. Next I'd take the Spire. I've heard nothing but great things about them, and a couple buddies have a Spire and Patrol and love em. They're coming from Specialized Enduro and prefer the Transition. Only complaint was the paint job isn't great so you might wanna consider wrapping it. I know a lot of people stress over geometry, and rightfully so, but I'm not looking to break any speed records or climb Mt Everest. I'm just looking to have fun on my bike, and that Privateer and Spire are the two I'd want the most.

I've never ridden a Privateer though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Rode my friend's Spire, but it's a large and I'm 5'7, so not fair to judge. I rode a Patrol earlier in the year though and loved it. I actually like Transition's entire lineup this year. They really did a great job.

 

[ocnLogan]

I thought about suggesting GG since that’s what my son and I ride. We really love our bikes and the GG lead times are very good now. However it looks like the OP is focused on alloy bikes. I’m not sure if that’s a hard limit or not.

Good observation. Its actually not a "hard" limit, its just a budget thing. And while GG is pretty affordable for a carbon frame (compared to Yeti, or Rocky Mountain), it looks like their frame only stuff with a shock is ~$2750 right now. So thats a full $1k over the cheaper alloy offerings (like the privateer). But I definitely have considered the Gnarvana.

So when you say "worst" front/rear center ratio, you mean you'd like the front center and rear center more balanced? I know Canfields do tend to have long front center and very short rear centers but I haven't looked at the numbers on the Lithium and Tilt. I do know I loved the short rear center on Riot and also the Evil bikes. That's preferences though.

If balanced is one of your main goals, you should really look at the Chilcotin. I've owned and ridden many Knolly bikes over the past 12 years and that's definitely one of the the things that stands out about them, and I know it's one of the the things Noel really strives to engineer into his bikes.

Correct, I meant that the front center/rear center ratio for the Canfields is the most skewed to the front center out of all the bikes on my list. Here is a snippet of the larger list. You can see the FC/RC ratio for the Canfields is much higher than the GG next to it (and the other bikes I posted before).

I hadn't done the math for the Chilcotin before. But it looks like its ~1.89 for the L, and 1.94 for the XL. So kind of middle of the road in terms of theoretical weight distro. I'll add it to my big list here shortly to see how the rest of it stacks up.

And, again, I know this is all super theoretical. I haven't been able to ride any of the bikes on this list. Its a way to compare bikes I can't get my hands on, to maybe help me figure out if its something I'm interested in.

I have a Titan and absolutely love it. But I don’t insist that everyone should like what I do. I’ll admit to being a little Spindrift curious, though. I think it would fit my needs really well.

Go ride the Transition. The Spire is pretty AF. Their retail manager is a really good friend of mine and a solid guy.

If I lived in the desert and rode that kind of terrain every day, I would have a Canfield. The short rear end would be nice for popping ledges and those types of moves. But I live in the northern Rockies, so I don’t.

Any thoughts on the Titan, and how it compares to anything else modern? The reviews are generally favorable for it. And Blatants review, sale, and subsequent repurchase of the Titan is definitely pretty compelling.

In fact, same with the Spindrift. The fact that Pinkbike (and other) places reviewed a 180/180mm bike, and said it was very efficient climbing, yet not boring on flatter stuff (my local riding area isn't Galbraith... sadly), is definitely appealing. And also, I love that they do secondary sealing on the bearings (like Raaw... who I also lust after... But their priced high enough that I also can't seriously consider them either right now).

I'd go Privateer cause that's what excites me most on that list. Something different and good value. Next I'd take the Spire. I've heard nothing but great things about them, and a couple buddies have a Spire and Patrol and love em. They're coming from Specialized Enduro and prefer the Transition. Only complaint was the paint job isn't great so you might wanna consider wrapping it. I know a lot of people stress over geometry, and rightfully so, but I'm not looking to break any speed records or climb Mt Everest. I'm just looking to have fun on my bike, and that Privateer and Spire are the two I'd want the most.

I've never ridden a Privateer though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Rode my friend's Spire, but it's a large and I'm 5'7, so not fair to judge. I rode a Patrol earlier in the year though and loved it. I actually like Transition's entire lineup this year. They really did a great job.

I can say that the thought of running a bike that is a bit less common, does appeal to me somewhat. And I do really like the ethos of the privateer brand. I'm not racing at all, although I do enjoy pushing myself to ride well (which often results in faster). Nothing feels better to me than really nailing a turn.

And Seriously. I've yet to hear anyone say anything bad about the Spire yet. On paper it seems like it must be so extreme, but most of the user feedback seems that isn't the case. And the fact that they are local to me is nice, as I know they are developing/testing their bikes here.

Maybe after Christmas I'll be able to go hit the Demos.

Thanks again everyone, I appreciate the help .

 

[evasive]

Any thoughts on the Titan, and how it compares to anything else modern? The reviews are generally favorable for it. And Blatants review, sale, and subsequent repurchase of the Titan is definitely pretty compelling.

Yeah, he puts a lot of bikes through their paces. For me, it’s been a few years since I’ve done a lot of demos. My last bike was a 5.5c and I never got on with it. Dumping it and building the Banshee was like flipping a switch re: confidence and reconnecting with rising passion. All I can really tell you is that the numbers make you think it should be a total pig on flatter, nontechnical terrain, but somehow it isn’t. Sure a carbon XC whip would be faster on most of my local trails, but riding the Titan is still loads of fun. (I don’t race, but I help run an enduro series so I spend quite a few weekends at bike parks, usually on their nastiest trails. If I only have one trail bike, it has to be a) capable of that and b) fun doing that.)

 

[KRob]

Yeah, he puts a lot of bikes through their paces. For me, it’s been a few years since I’ve done a lot of demos. My last bike was a 5.5c and I never got on with it. Dumping it and building the Banshee was like flipping a switch re: confidence and reconnecting with rising passion. All I can really tell you is that the numbers make you think it should be a total pig on flatter, nontechnical terrain, but somehow it isn’t. Sure a carbon XC whip would be faster on most of my local trails, but riding the Titan is still loads of fun. (I don’t race, but I help run an enduro series so I spend quite a few weekends at bike parks, usually on their nastiest trails. If I only have one trail bike, it has to be a) capable of that and b) fun doing that.)

Just got me curious about the Titan as well so read a couple of reviews. Sounds like a solid choice with regards to what the OP is looking for. It has a little shorter reach and longer chainstays than most so the F/R center ratio should be more like what Logan is looking for.

 

[evasive]

The optional longer dropouts give you an even longer rear center if that’s what you’re looking for.