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Long Travel hardtails (150mm) and coil forks...

10384 Views 38 Replies 21 Participants Last post by Shadowkill, 4 mo ago

Nosdeho

Discussion Starter · Dec 13, 2021

I am saving money for a fork to pair with a Kona honzo ESD and I need some advise. I have got it in my head a coil fork on a hard tail with long Travel would be better matched with a fork that doesn't dive into berms when breaking or cause so much chatter that the back wheel loses traction on technical. Considering there is no rear suspension and I am out of my element I could use some help. I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
Thanks ahead to the gurus.

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lookiel

· #2 · Dec 13, 2021 (Edited)

I can’t comment on the forks you’re considering but on my hardtail I run a 140mm Pike that I converted to coil with the Push ACS kit and can say that I enjoy the fork’s performance more than when it was air sprung: it’s not as divey, a bit more supple and also more composed. However it’s less tunable given that you can’t play with air pressure or volume so your mileage may vary depending on your needs. Choosing the right spring is key!

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Mike Aswell

· #3 · Dec 13, 2021

A coil fork is definitely going to improve some of the issues you are referencing. I ran one on a trail bike for a few years (not a hard tail) and my only complaint at all is that the weight penalty is real, and it's all in the front of the bike. Which is not an ideal place for excess weight. So depending upon the type of trails/riding you do the most, it can become evident. In other words if there is a lot of up and over (step ups, rocks, fallen trees) it can be noticeable having the extra weight there. I also coincidentally ran a Pike converted with ACS kit.

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drdre

· #4 · Dec 13, 2021

its a tough call - competing factors. On one hand, you need all the help you can get on a hardtail so coil would be nice to smooth the rough ride, but on the other hand, if the front is even more capable than the back, its even less balanced and it becomes even more painfully obvious with the front being in control but not the back. coil does sound nice to not have to futz with air pressures at all.

you can concentrate on having least dive. mezzer is really good at this. you can concentrate on plushness with a coil option. you can focus on damping with grip 2. pick whichever bothers you the most and target that is one strategy.

I'm currently having similar issues with an overforked current gen n9.

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Arm&Hammer

· #5 · Dec 13, 2021

I used a Cane Creek Helm Coil on my Ragley at 160mm, was awesome, now I have changed its travel to 140mm and put it on my VerHauen, love it, no regrets.

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Nosdeho

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 13, 2021

Luckily I have a Cane Creek fan boy, expert for dialing in a shock perfect. I just ran across the damper issues with MRP on this website. I just hear the problem with Fox 36's and trying to get it dialed in for hardtails. Myself personally if I am not riding xc I am full squish so I like my forks dumb and simple and I dial my rear shock for chatter and drops. I am building this hardtail for flowy trails out of state and double blacks in FL which is my missing link in my stable.

cassieno

· #7 · Dec 13, 2021

I am using a Mezzer @150mm on my hardtail. It doesn't feel divey at all. I wonder if some of it is fork set-up for you? it's a hardtail, the rear will always sort of bounce around when it gets technical. But, I have been very impressed with my Mezzer to help the bike be planted.

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stripes

· #8 · Dec 13, 2021 (Edited)

Interesting that this thread appeared. I’m building a Nimble 9 with a 160mm Ohlins RXF m2 coil. I’m hoping it’ll make the bike more enjoyable than the Pedalhead I had with an air fork (Fox 34) that I sold a few years ago.

I’m hoping this is going to be what I need to get back to some hardtail life

love my full suspension, but there are times you just want simple.

I’ll post a pic when it’s done.

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FrankS29

· #9 · Dec 13, 2021

I've been really happy with My DVO Sapphire and I'm waiting on a new Diamond from them as well.

The Off the Top (OTT) on them is fantastic. Really smooth small bump while allowing you to run a well-supported air spring.

I tried to get along with a Fox 34 that I've struggled to like when I built up my RSD Middlechild V2. It didn't take me long to decide to put my Sapphire on the RSD and order a new fork for my Ripley.

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OneTrustMan

· #10 · Dec 13, 2021

Nosdeho said:
I am debating between a MRP ribbon or a Cane Creek helm either coil or air.
Thanks ahead to the gurus.

I only have a bit experience with a Helm air MK1 ( was on a test festival in 2018 ). This fork felt almost like a coil and was much better than anything from Fox, or RS I had ridden before. I can't imagine the CC coil version to be bad.

I still prefer air forks even on my hardtail.

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stripes

· #11 · Dec 13, 2021 (Edited)

lookiel said:
I can’t comment on the forks you’re considering but on my hardtail I run a 140mm Pike that I converted to coil with the Push ACS kit and can say that I enjoy the fork’s performance more than when it was air sprung: it’s not as divey, a bit more supple and also more composed. However it’s less tunable given that you can’t play with air pressure or volume so your mileage may vary depending on your needs. Choosing the right spring is key!

The shim stacks are still tunable

but you’re right. All the springs.

Air springs feel so inconsistent to me that I’ll run coil on anything i can find.

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Nosdeho

Discussion Starter · #12 · Dec 14, 2021

FrankS29 said:
I've been really happy with My DVO Sapphire and I'm waiting on a new Diamond from them as well.

The Off the Top (OTT) on them is fantastic. Really smooth small bump while allowing you to run a well-supported air spring.

I tried to get along with a Fox 34 that I've struggled to like when I built up my RSD Middlechild V2. It didn't take me long to decide to put my Sapphire on the RSD and order a new fork for my Ripley.

How many tokens did you put in to get the feel you were looking for? Did you adjust the compression and dampening differently then a full squish to get this feel? The only hardtail I have ridden for a long time is a ritchey 650-b with a Reba 100mm fork and I have it dialed in perfect. Before that I had a Gary Fischer with a coil and I beat the snot out of it. All of my other steads have been squishy.

Nosdeho

Discussion Starter · #13 · Dec 14, 2021

Two people mention the mezzer I will do some research. Luckily I am paying cash so I have time before I pull the trigger. Thanks guys.

diamondback1x9

· #14 · Dec 14, 2021

I have a mrp ribbon coil on my marin San Quentin 2 set @ 150 and it is amazing. You could also take a look at the marzocchi z1 coil

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lookiel

· #15 · Dec 14, 2021

stripes said:
Air springs feel so inconsistent to me that I’ll run coil on anything i can find.

Yeah, I also find coils more consistent and would gladly change all my forks to them despite the weight penalty👍🏼

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stripes

· #16 · Dec 14, 2021

lookiel said:
Yeah, I also find coils more consistent and would gladly change all my forks to them despite the weight penalty

This is what I’ve done with all my bikes, from hardtail to DH.

So much easier to service too.

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joecx

· #17 · Dec 14, 2021

I had a Pike with an ACS3 coil kit on my HT for awhile but found the difference in feel front to rear was creating handling issues. I've since installed a new Pike with the C1 airspring that everyone seems to hate and it feels more consistent handling. I also don't like much more than 140mm travel as there are less geo changes.

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FrankS29

· #18 · Dec 14, 2021

Nosdeho said:
How many tokens did you put in to get the feel you were looking for? Did you adjust the compression and dampening differently then a full squish to get this feel? The only hardtail I have ridden for a long time is a ritchey 650-b with a Reba 100mm fork and I have it dialed in perfect. Before that I had a Gary Fischer with a coil and I beat the snot out of it. All of my other steads have been squishy.

My Sapphire has one token in it, I wanted a touch more ramp up on bigger hits.

In general, I run a touch more high and low speed compression on a HT, I think it matches the rear of the bike more than just making it plush as can be. But some of this can depend on the trail and my mood.

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cookieMonster

· #19 · Dec 14, 2021

Checking in to this thread because I'm planning to swap my Marz. Z2 to a Z1 coil this winter (on an ESD). I got the ESD frame to replace my cracked aluminum Honzo last spring, and had the 140mm Z2 already, which suits the bike just fine, and I don't hate the fork by any means, but....

Coil is just so much better than air. I think air forks are fine in slower, tech situations. Where I really feel the difference is in high speed, high-frequency chatter, especially as temperatures get lower. I finished a ride the other day on a trail riddled with braking bumps, and it was around 32 degrees Fahrenheit. My hands were numb and cramped at the bottom of the descent. I am a rock climber and basically don't get arm pump, ever -- but the fork beat my hands to death. It is bad on this trail when it's warm out, but manageable. In the cold, it was all I could do to hold on.

My other bike has coil suspension at both ends. Night and day difference. I basically don't feel anything in my hands on that trail, regardless of temperature. Can't comment on the two forks you mentioned, but I'd judge they are both an improvement over air, but a large margin. At most, you're going to gain 1 pound of weight. Unnoticeable.

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Carl Mega

· #20 · Dec 14, 2021

OneTrustMan said:
I only have a bit experience with a Helm air MK1 ( was on a test festival in 2018 ). This fork felt almost like a coil and was much better than anything from Fox, or RS I had ridden before. I can't imagine the CC coil version to be bad.

Interesting. I have a Helm MK1 that I've run 160/170 on a hardtail and it is polar opposite to coil feeling. I've tried it all in terms of pressure/neg pressure/no volume adjuster/compression and it is always more progressive and higher in travel than my coil fork. It's a fine fork mind you but certainly on the sharp end of the progressive feel for hard charging. My preference would be a bit more supple and less progression to find full travel more often. With that, I personally would be interested in the Helm coil but as someone else said - the weight differences are legit.

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