[TimTucker]

Considering a set of lighter wheels for my Stache (2018 Stache 5, currently running 29x3.25" tires).

Some background / assumptions:

• The Duroc 50 rims are currently listed on the Hayes site as 590g and I'm assuming the stock hubs are probably on the heavy side, so most anything I upgrade to is likely to reduce weight.
  • I'm seeing other references to 655g for weight on these as well...
• As long as I'm running 3.25" tires I should probably keep with 40+mm internal width and it's better not to try to save weight by going narrower.
• I'm about 160 lbs, do mostly XC riding, am just starting to figure out getting wheels off the ground, and haven't managed to damage any wheels yet.
• I'm a sucker for trying out new technology / gimmicks to improve comfort
  • Current bike has Fasst Flexx bars w/ 12 degree backsweep, Revgrips, and a Nexride noseless saddle (cut down to 140mm width) on a Chinese Rinsten spring clone
• No matter what I upgrade to, my own level of skill and fitness will still be the limiting factor for me on the bike.

Looking around at a few different options to cut weight, I've seen:

• Light Bicycle RM29C15
  • ~100g savings per wheel
  • 490g +/- 20g
  • ~$220 / rim shipped
  • RM29C15 Carbon MTB Rim - Light Bicycle
• Carbon Bicycle (various 50mm options)
  • ~100g savings per wheel
  • 490-510g +/-20g
  • ~$230 / rim shipped
  • Hookless XC 27.5er(650B) &29er mtb 50mm wide carbon rims tubeless compatible - Hookless Rim - Carbonbicycle Online Shop
• Nextie Crocodile 29+ rims
  • ~80g savings per wheel? (only comes in 32H, which might lead to more weight!)
  • ~510g
  • ~$275 / rim shipped
  • [NXT29CD50] [Crocodile] 50mm Width Carbon Semi-Fat Plus MTB 29+ Rim [Tubeless Compatible]
• Nextie NXT29XM46
  • ~120g savings per wheel
  • Only 40mm internal width (enough for 3.25" tires?)
  • ~470g
  • [NXT29XMA45] PREMIUM Asymmetric 45mm Width Carbon Fiber 29" Mountain Bike Clincher Rim [Tubeless Compatible]
• KR-29-XCW from Kappius
  • ~150g savings per wheel
  • 435g +/ 15g
  • $700 / rim shipped
  • https://www.kappiuscomponents.com/collections/rims/products/kr-29-xcw-rim
• Berd spokes
  • ~50-100g savings per wheel
  • ~$280 for a 28H wheel

Are there other options that I should be considering?

From past experience with Vibrocore bars and stuffing my Fasst Flexx bars with foam backer rod, I'm curious about similar tech with rims. As far as I can tell, though, the only plus rims that are foam injected are Atomik's Chubby Plus and those are 27.5+ only:

CHUBBY 43 - 275 Plus - atomikcarbon.com

atomikcarbon.com

I did come across COPRO as another builder with foam injected wheels, but it looks like those are only 30mm internal width and ~$600 each:

COPRO Products

Berd spokes + Kappius rims seems like it would be the "best" possible option for weight & quality.

For value, though, would slightly heavier carbon rims + Berd spokes be a better option than Kapius rims & standard double-butted spokes?

 

[marvin rouge]

I’ve got the Light i45s on the Krampacker, while she has the Nextie i40s on her Beyond+ ADV. Both bikes are running lightly knobbed 3” tyres that weigh 800 - 900gr (Ranger Light, XR2 and Vittoria Cannolis). These rims and tyre combinations are great for XC duties and the overall ride feel (ie. responsive acceleration at the pedal) is fantastic. The rim and tyre is the surely best place to get weight saving benefits - so it’s money we’ll spent? PS I can’t see or feel a great deal of difference between the characteristics of the same 3” tyres on either of the i40 or i45 options. But running 3.25”, it may be a perceptible difference on i40, so perhaps i45 or i50 is best for you.

 

[Grinchy8]

As far as I can tell, though, the only plus rims that are foam injected are Atomik's Chubby Plus and those are 27.5+ only:
CHUBBY 43 - 275 Plus - atomikcarbon.com

That's a cool rim. I just bought some spank oozy trail 395+ (i35, 590g) and would definitely have purchased a vibracore version if it was available. $600per is a bit much, but cool to see the product. I just bought a cushcore instead.
For your comparison table triple butted spokes for the i35 rims are roughly 160g for 32 spokes (depends on length of course). Brass nipples are 32g for 32.

 

[BansheeRune]

What is the budget for this?


Frankly, with two bikes wearing Crux 3.25's in my house, I would not desire i40's for that kind of volume. Would be horrendous! One bike is i64's, the other i45's. There is a definitive difference in both however, both perform very well. Going to the narrower would require an increase in daily riding pressure that as a 165# rider, I really am not interested in.
While I am doing primarily trails and getting trialsy while doing the deed, I need the tire to conform first and foremost.
The 3.25's are purely for Jeepin on unimproved deer trails where loam, loose requires the flotation they can deliver but 3.0's on the i45's that are light ( ~800g) do keep the fuel economy up.

You are going to work into form, fitness etc and do a ton of learning as you get down the trail!
Is the current setup holding you back to the extent you need to dump weight?

 

[mikesee]

After experimenting with lots of rim/spoke combo's on my 29+ rigs the past few years, I've settled on Berd spokes and Kappius rims. Really light, incredibly compliant ride.

Just laced myself a set of the Nextie Xiphias rims with Berds to see how they compare, but literally zero miles on them so far.

I could never tell any difference with the Vibrocore rims, and I'm usually pretty perceptive with even minute changes.

 

[TimTucker]

After experimenting with lots of rim/spoke combo's on my 29+ rigs the past few years, I've settled on Berd spokes and Kappius rims. Really light, incredibly compliant ride.

Just laced myself a set of the Nextie Xiphias rims with Berds to see how they compare, but literally zero miles on them so far.

I could never tell any difference with the Vibrocore rims, and I'm usually pretty perceptive with even minute changes.

I think you've experimented with a lot more combinations that most people. Your posts about your recent builds were where I saw the Kappius + Berd combo.

I hadn't seen the Xiphias -- would be curious on a ride report on those to see how they compare. Similar weight to the Kappius rims, but wider & lower cost sounds enticing, although I've never tried running single wall rims.

On the Vibrocore it's interesting that didn't seem to do much for you -- did you do much pavement riding with them? When I stuffed my Fasst bars with foam backer rod, I found it made a small but noticeable reduction in the slight buzz from riding on concrete, but didn't feel hugely different off-road.

 

[mikesee]

I think you've experimented with a lot more combinations that most people. Your posts about your recent builds were where I saw the Kappius + Berd combo.

I hadn't seen the Xiphias -- would be curious on a ride report on those to see how they compare. Similar weight to the Kappius rims, but wider & lower cost sounds enticing, although I've never tried running single wall rims.

On the Vibrocore it's interesting that didn't seem to do much for you -- did you do much pavement riding with them? When I stuffed my Fasst bars with foam backer rod, I found it made a small but noticeable reduction in the slight buzz from riding on concrete, but didn't feel hugely different off-road.

Likely to be spring before I have much to say. Winter coming quick and this bike will spend it in the rafters.

I don’t really ride pavement if I can help it.

 

[TimTucker]

What is the budget for this?

Frankly, with two bikes wearing Crux 3.25's in my house, I would not desire i40's for that kind of volume. Would be horrendous! One bike is i64's, the other i45's. There is a definitive difference in both however, both perform very well. Going to the narrower would require an increase in daily riding pressure that as a 165# rider, I really am not interested in.
While I am doing primarily trails and getting trialsy while doing the deed, I need the tire to conform first and foremost.
The 3.25's are purely for Jeepin on unimproved deer trails where loam, loose requires the flotation they can deliver but 3.0's on the i45's that are light ( ~800g) do keep the fuel economy up.

You are going to work into form, fitness etc and do a ton of learning as you get down the trail!
Is the current setup holding you back to the extent you need to dump weight?

I'm trying to talk myself into what my budget should be at this point. My mind just tends to go towards upgrades & maintenance when it gets colder out, since I find myself sitting in front of a computer more and outside less during the winter. Last year's big impulse buy was the Fasst Flexx bars and I've really liked those.

Admittedly I jumped straight from an old Niner with 29x2.2" Conti Race Kings to the Stache with 29x3.25" Bulldozers (it had a set of worn out Knards that I immediately replaced after buying it). I liked the traction and general feel that I could plow over anything from the bigger tires. I liked the (slightly) updated geometry. Would I like 29x3.0 or 29x2.8" just as much or even more? Would I like other modern bikes that are a little more aggressive in geometry trends better? Maybe? Maybe not?

I do have an old Trek 830 with 26x2.5" / 26x46mm Surly Extraterrestrials as well and lately every time I take it out I find myself wishing I was on the Stache -- it's significantly heavier without being more capable and the overall fit doesn't quite seem as on point. The only real draw is that it has a rack in back that works well when I need to haul things around and using it around town saves wear on my primary bike. At this point I'm not sure if there's a good rationale for keeping it around if I happen to find another cheap used Stache that I can toss on a rack and some slightly faster rolling tires for pavement.

In terms of holding me back, I've noticed myself falling behind on rides where I'm out with other people who seem to be of a similar skill level & fitness on short travel or hardtail XC bikes. A few weeks ago there was a local event that involved about 43 miles of riding local XC trails -- about 70% of the riding was on the trails themselves, 30% was paved multi-purpose pathways and dirt roads riding from trail to trail. I spent much of the time with or little behind one of the slower groups that was doing the full distance -- not a huge surprise, but I felt like I was lagging considerably on the long / straight / flat sections in between trails and on some of the uphills. One of the trails was a complete mud pit, though -- I was making up significant ground every time we'd hit particularly bad areas.

The other piece holding back some of my riding has been issues with pain in my right shoulder & neck, but that seems to be more a combination of working on a PC all day and needing to develop more core & upper body strength. Fine tuning bike setup, getting stronger, & focusing on stretching seem to have helped a lot with that, though -- in the last 2 years I've gone from it starting to be an issue around 5-8 miles to it not really being an issue until I hit 20+ miles. Not sure if any additional dampening from carbon rims or berd spokes can help with that, but at this point I have a lot more confidence that spending time on the rowing machine I picked up to try this winter will be a bigger help.

 

[mikesee]

In terms of holding me back, I've noticed myself falling behind on rides

Something about the 3.25's has always seemed draggy -- slow -- to me.

Even running higher-than-needed pressures they just never felt fast.

Have you tried some 3.0's? XR2's or Rangers?

 

[TimTucker]

Something about the 3.25's has always seemed draggy -- slow -- to me.

Even running higher-than-needed pressures they just never felt fast.

Have you tried some 3.0's? XR2's or Rangers?

Not sure if it's helped or hurt things, but based on some other comments on here about it helping reduce self-steer I've had the front installed backwards. For reference, what would you consider a "higher-than-needed pressure" vs. appropriate pressure for those? I've run them anywhere from ~8-12psi, sometimes a little lower when I get lazy about checking pressure and a little higher if I'm going to be trying to do jumps with the kids or taking it on a longer ride that involves sections of pavement between trails.

As I mentioned in another comment, I went straight from taking off the worn off Knards it came with to the Bulldozers and haven't tried out anything else. One of the reasons behind looking at a second wheelset would be to make it easier to try out other tires with less downtime when doing A/B tests.

Strava suggests that I'm riding the Stache faster than any of my other bikes, but it's hard to say how much of that is just a result of getting stronger and developing better bike handling skills.

There are occasional times where I get a little nervous when cornering, but it's hard to say how much of that is the tires vs. how much is residual fear from having the bike slide out from underneath me last winter. I tried riding our backyard bike park during one of the first snowfalls of the year and next to no traction with the combination of fresh layer of powdery snow + wood boardwalk. I'm pretty sure I bruised a few ribs -- it hurt to laugh or blow my nose for weeks and took a few months to completely recover. Lesson learned was wood + fresh snow isn't a combination that I think I'm going to be comfortable with unless I try something with studs, but I'm also not fond of the idea of studs digging into wood features that I'm the one maintaining.

I did put a set of 27.5x3.0 Rangers on a Big Honzo for my wife, but I haven't done anything more than a few laps around the back yard a bit to test it out.

 

[BansheeRune]

Something about the 3.25's has always seemed draggy -- slow -- to me.

Even running higher-than-needed pressures they just never felt fast.

Have you tried some 3.0's? XR2's or Rangers?

Come on, Mike! We all know that 3.25's were never made for fuel economy, they were made for Jeepin'.

 

[yogiprophet]

The LightBicycle i45 rims you have listed there are very good quality. A light option would be to get them to drill all the holes offset on one side and use the Sapim CX-Ray, DT Swiss Aerolite or even the Berd spokes you mentioned.

 

[TimTucker]

The LightBicycle i45 rims you have listed there are very good quality. A light option would be to get them to drill all the holes offset on one side and use the Sapim CX-Ray, DT Swiss Aerolite or even the Berd spokes you mentioned.

Quality doesn't seem to be too much in question for any of the options and undoubtable losing 300g or more per wheel with carbon rims & Berd spokes is going to be a huge improvement -- it's more whether or not I'll notice a benefit in paying more for something like the Xiphias that's both a little lighter and wider (and more expensive) or the Kappius rims (that are a lot more expensive).

Taking into account tolerances, the LighBicycle rims are listed as 490g +/- 20g. The Nextie rims are listed as 430g, but don't have any margin of error listed. If it's a similar margin of error, the extreme of 510g vs. 410g seems like a pretty big difference but 470g vs. 450g seems like it would be hard to tell.

Edit: also noticed that the Nextie rim seems to be available only in 32H, which would negate a little of the weight benefit.

 

[mikesee]

For reference, what would you consider a "higher-than-needed pressure" vs. appropriate pressure for those?

For me ~15psi would be higher than needed.

Might not be too high for you, tho.

 

[CBaron]

Wanted to chime in here with my personal experience. I had the OEM Stache 9 wheels: DT350 & Mulefuts. It wasn't bad but not great either. When I fell in love with the bike and the plus platform, I began using it as my race bike too. Thus I wanted a lightweight wheel set to shed some rotational weight. I chose the EIE carbon i39 rim and had them build it up with DT350's, sapim spokes and AL nips. I went with the i39 over the LB i45's because I wanted slightly narrower in case I wanted to run a more race oriented sub+ tire. The rims were actually around the same weight.
When the wheels arrived I was a little caught off guard with their actual weight. They came in about 100 grams lighter (at 1630 gm) than my estimations. Truthfully, this made me a little cautious on durability, strength, etc.. However, I've had them now for 3 yrs and they've proven to be bomb proof. We have tons of rock chunk here and I've ridden them 1,000's of miles and raced them a lot. I've dropped them into the truing stand a few times per year but have not had to touch them even 1x. I'd say they have exceeded my expectations. For reference I'm 5'10" 165lbs, ride aggressively in plenty of tech, but I'm not hard on wheels or equipment. YMMV

Here is a photo of my fromt wheel when it arrived. I can't find my photo of the rear.

Example photo of some of the chunk at a trail that I've put in over 300 racing miles in during past 3 yrs.

Middle box drop photo at Slaughter Pen- Bentonville.

 

[croatiansensation]

Something about the 3.25's has always seemed draggy -- slow -- to me.

Even running higher-than-needed pressures they just never felt fast.

Have you tried some 3.0's? XR2's or Rangers?

Interesting to hear your much more educated and experienced opinion on this, Mike.

I love the 3.25 Bulldozer on the front of my rigid Krampus, and recently swapped another one in for the XR2 I was running as a rear tire. I so thought I would love it, but after the first few rides my opinion is that the extra traction is great but not worth the increased drag/rolling resistance. I will probably be putting the XR2 back on, even though it is a bit fragile for my terrain.

 

[mikesee]

Interesting to hear your much more educated and experienced opinion on this, Mike.

I love the 3.25 Bulldozer on the front of my rigid Krampus, and recently swapped another one in for the XR2 I was running as a rear tire. I so thought I would love it, but after the first few rides my opinion is that the extra traction is great but not worth the increased drag/rolling resistance. I will probably be putting the XR2 back on, even though it is a bit fragile for my terrain.

I wonder if it comes down to casing construction and rubber durometer more than actual size?

I wanted to like 3.25" but they just didn't roll well enough.

 

[TimTucker]

I think I've gotten talked into trying the XR2s -- at nearly ~400g per wheel lighter than the Bulldozers, it certainly seems like a cost effective way of dropping weight.

I've also solidified that carbon rims are probably a good upgrade for me.

On the difference that Berd spokes make, curious on @mikesee 's opinion since he's both ridden with them extensively and had experience with a few FS 29+ options -- which makes the bigger difference in comfort? i.e.: am I better off to go a little cheaper on wheels & put the savings towards something like a Lenz frame? (somewhat typical midwestern US XC riding, with some medium rocks & roots, but no huge extended downhills or massive rock formations)

 

[mikesee]

I think I've gotten talked into trying the XR2s -- at nearly ~400g per wheel lighter than the Bulldozers, it certainly seems like a cost effective way of dropping weight.

I've also solidified that carbon rims are probably a good upgrade for me.

On the difference that Berd spokes make, curious on @mikesee 's opinion since he's both ridden with them extensively and had experience with a few FS 29+ options -- which makes the bigger difference in comfort? i.e.: am I better off to go a little cheaper on wheels & put the savings towards something like a Lenz frame? (somewhat typical midwestern US XC riding, with some medium rocks & roots, but no huge extended downhills or massive rock formations)

Depends on how you ride, and who (if anyone) you ride with.

If I lived in the midwest and mostly rode solo, I'd be on a hardtail (almost certainly a Stache) with Berd-spoked wheels and 2.8 to 3" tires.

If I was charging hard on the few tech trails that exist, sessioning with friends, etc..., I'd be on a 4 or 5" travel Lenz 29+ frame. But -- because I'm me -- it'd also have Berd spokes...