[TimTucker]

As weather is cooling off again and I'm spending more time indoors, that means more time thinking about the possibility of new bikes / new frames / etc.

I've been toying with the idea of a custom frame from Marino, since there's not a lot of options out there for 29+ -- particularly if I wanted to try full suspension.

Given that I've only ridden hardtails so far, I'm a little curious to learn a bit more about leverage ratios on rear shocks.

I've seen quite a few posts talking about increased leverage ratios sometimes being helpful for heavier riders, but not a whole lot about the pros / cons of different ratios for more average riders. (I'm about 160 lbs, so pretty firmly in "average" territory)

As an example, I see the Manitou Mara Pro is available in anything from a 190x40mm to 250x75mm -- assuming the same amount of travel, what would be the reasoning behind picking the shorter stroke length + higher leverage ratio vs. longer stroke length + lower leverage ratio?

Given that Marino's frames use a single pivot design, I'm assuming that the leverage ratio would remain the same through travel.

 

[Jayem]

No, the one thing a single pivot like that can’t do is give a constant leverage ratio. To that extent, it’s either falling or rising. Leverage ratio is the overall comparison of travel to shock stroke, but leverage curve is also very important. The Marino causes a falling rate based on the shock position. This is generally a bad thing, especially because it gets more this way through the travel. single pivot bikes don’t have to be falling rate, they can be rising, but it takes a little more design work, like the Guerrilla gravity with the front of the shock angled downwards. Another way to achieve this if the shock is roughly horizontal in the frame is the rear eyelet of the shock needs to be significantly behind a straight vertical line from the main pivot and never go past this line through the stroke.

In general, higher leverage ratio is going to minimize shock and bushing drag and the shock will be shorter and therefore lighter. It puts more pressure on the internals though and of course requires higher spring rate. It also puts more wear on the bike pivots and parts.

High leverage is bad for a heavier rider. Falling rate is bad for nearly everyone, but especially a heavier rider, because you have to use an artificially higher spring rate than you would need otherwise with the same leverage ratio.

 

[theMISSIONARY]

I have seen a fairly recent post (somewhere) about Marino and the shock position being something that is negotiated during the design phase

 

[TimTucker]

I have seen a fairly recent post (somewhere) about Marino and the shock position being something that is negotiated during the design phase

That's my understanding as well -- just trying to learn a bit on my own, since even if I do go down the path of getting something from them it sounds like there's usually a week or so of turnaround time between communication back and forth.

 

[Jayem]

That's my understanding as well -- just trying to learn a bit on my own, since even if I do go down the path of getting something from them it sounds like there's usually a week or so of turnaround time between communication back and forth.

While they seem to have a lot of different custom setups (pictures), none seem to show a progressive design and their general layout does not contribute to a progressive design

 

[fuzz_muffin]

Why on God's grey earth are you bothering thinking about custom dual sus bikes when you haven't ridden any?

Okay maybe that reads way more salty then intended, but what is the reasoning here?

 

[TimTucker]

Why on God's grey earth are you bothering thinking about custom dual sus bikes when you haven't ridden any?

Okay maybe that reads way more salty then intended, but what is the reasoning here?

The general reasoning:

• I'd curious about trying a full suspension bike
  • My 6yo is starting to get interested in jumps and I'm not sure how well I'm going to be able to keep pace with his progression on a hardtail
  • Rear suspension seems like it would help with not getting as beat up on rides
• From the last 2 years or so of riding on a Stache I've found that I like 29+ and don't particularly want to go back to narrower tires
  • Our local trails have areas that are prone to getting sandy and the extra width seems to help
• There are a few things that I don't like about it
  • I don't like the integrated headset on the Stache (would prefer a Cane Creek Viscoset)
  • I don't like the pressfit bottom bracket on the Stache
• The Full Stache is pretty much the only 29+ bike that I stand any chance of being able to try locally
  • It has the same 2 drawbacks above as the Stache -- I could live with a pressfit BB, but I'd really like to be able to use the Viscoset
  • The guy I bought my Stache from sold it to upgrade to the Full Stache is now on his 4th (might be 5th) rear triangle, which doesn't inspire much confidence
• Even if I wanted to demo other bikes, between cancellations due to COVID and lack of availability there have been pretty much no big demo days around here
• Getting a frame from Marino is significantly cheaper than most of the other 29+ FS options out there (particularly if I were to travel to demo one)

 

[Jayem]

The general reasoning:

• I'd curious about trying a full suspension bike
  • My 6yo is starting to get interested in jumps and I'm not sure how well I'm going to be able to keep pace with his progression on a hardtail
  • Rear suspension seems like it would help with not getting as beat up on rides
• From the last 2 years or so of riding on a Stache I've found that I like 29+ and don't particularly want to go back to narrower tires
  • Our local trails have areas that are prone to getting sandy and the extra width seems to help
• There are a few things that I don't like about it
  • I don't like the integrated headset on the Stache (would prefer a Cane Creek Viscoset)
  • I don't like the pressfit bottom bracket on the Stache
• The Full Stache is pretty much the only 29+ bike that I stand any chance of being able to try locally
  • It has the same 2 drawbacks above as the Stache -- I could live with a pressfit BB, but I'd really like to be able to use the Viscoset
  • The guy I bought my Stache from sold it to upgrade to the Full Stache is now on his 4th (might be 5th) rear triangle, which doesn't inspire much confidence
• Even if I wanted to demo other bikes, between cancellations due to COVID and lack of availability there have been pretty much no big demo days around here
• Getting a frame from Marino is significantly cheaper than most of the other 29+ FS options out there (particularly if I were to travel to demo one)

Here's an example of a steel frame that should have a decent leverage curve, because the eyelet of the rear shock is effectively moved behind the seat-tube with the addition of the yoke.

Steel Full Suspension Bikes

.....

www.mtbr.com

 

[fuzz_muffin]

Interesting.

I'm not suggesting you should justify why you need a dually, it's just the whole going custom route I don't really understand.

Re the jumping. Non-issue, pretty much all jumps barring no lip Moto kickers ride better on a full rigid bmx or DJs. No stress there. Unless they're absolutely massive that is.

I'd suggest the riding dynamics of fat tyres that makes them feel good for hard tails is detrimental on dual sus platforms. But that is for you to decide, personally I hate the feeling of fat squirmy tyres.

Never tried that visco headset, have never felt the need to damp steering inputs. That's what it does right?

Anyway, my suggestion is to just try a secondhand 29er with regular tyres first. But I'm just some random asshat on the Internet. Now I realize I've just barged into your thread, which asked specific questions, without actually even addressing your questions! I'll just leave now.

Cheers!

 

[TimTucker]

Interesting.

I'm not suggesting you should justify why you need a dually, it's just the whole going custom route I don't really understand.

Re the jumping. Non-issue, pretty much all jumps barring no lip Moto kickers ride better on a full rigid bmx or DJs. No stress there. Unless they're absolutely massive that is.

I'd suggest the riding dynamics of fat tyres that makes them feel good for hard tails is detrimental on dual sus platforms. But that is for you to decide, personally I hate the feeling of fat squirmy tyres.

Never tried that visco headset, have never felt the need to damp steering inputs. That's what it does right?

Anyway, my suggestion is to just try a secondhand 29er with regular tyres first. But I'm just some random asshat on the Internet. Now I realize I've just barged into your thread, which asked specific questions, without actually even addressing your questions! I'll just leave now.

Cheers!

I originally started looking at Marino with the idea of ordering a hardtail that was close to what I have, just with some of my gripes addressed plus a some tweaks in geometry. The few full suspension 29+ options out there aside from the Full Stache (Lenz Sport / La Ruta) are generally small builders doing the frames as on-offs, so you're already into semi-custom territory there.

With the Viscoset, yes it's for steering damping. I'd tried it before getting the Stache on an older Niner Emd 9 (still in the garage but haven't ridden it in a while). It's not a huge difference but it does reduce the amount of exertion required to keep from getting knocked offline by roots or rocks a little. My right shoulder has been a persistent issue, so I'll take all the help I can get for things that out off fatigue or pain a little.

Having ridden with the Niner before, the wider tires on the Stache help significantly on sections of trail that get sandy or loose. Also had a lot less issue with the front end lifting up on climbs, but I think that's more a factor of the bike being a little longer than the tire width.

29+ is just as much about diameter as it is width, though - at ~30.5" outer diameter on 29x3.25", it's pretty similar to the jump going from 27.5 to 29. Tire squirm has never seemed like an issue as long as there's sufficient pressure.

I've also considered trying a 36er to see what an even bigger wheel feels like, but figure I'm not willing to go down that route unless I can figure out something for at least front suspension.

For jumps, it's more about hitting 40 and wanting something that's going to be less rough on my body when I land. I have a BMX bike, but part of what's held me back on progress with it is just the jarring feel of landings. Even if it's more efficient to learn stuff like bunny hopping, it doesn't do much good if my shoulders get too sore to keep trying after only a few attempts.