[2fst4u]

My thought is this... If I'm having a hard time getting enough recovery while executing a training plan, like the 8 week time crunched cyclist plan or any other race prep periodization plan, to avoid overreaching and not be so fatigued all the time can a person...

Add extra rest days here and there to the whole 8 week plan thus lengthening the entire program an extra week or so, yet still perform every workout listed in the plan.

OR

Be careful to stick to the same overall 8 week time frame period but skip hard workouts and just do easy spinning instead, thus keeping the same time period (8 weeks) but skipping some workouts.

So, to rephrase: I'm asking if it's better to be rigid and stick to the programs overall 8 week time frame yet make the hard workouts into easy endurance when needed, thus ending up missing out on some of the intensity workouts

OR

Make sure to NOT miss any of the intensity workouts by extending the time frame of the whole program.

In each scenario the weekly time (hours) would be the same and I'd do easy spinning when fatigued.

Assume also that a proper aerobic base has been established as well as sleep and other factors are good.


This kinda goes along with the other post where we've been discussing how to handle fatigue and how fresh one should feel before a workout.

Whats your thoughts guys?

 

[Gatorback]

I don't think the answer is necessary mutually exclusive. Both approaches may work better than limping through a hard workout and not being able to complete it or perform it well.

I would pick the "extend total time" option if given the choice. You are still getting in all your quality workouts, plus adequate rest, so you should probably be better off than doing less. I think the problem with that is that it assumes you don't have a deadline on the training plan, such as a peak race. From a practical perspective, if your goal race is 8 weeks away then you simply can't extend your time.

 

[newtrailhead]

Even the Pros struggle with the fatigue/burnout.
http://heatherirmiger.com/12/i-love-hate-august/

The best advice I can give is listen to your body. If you really feel you need to recover more, YOU DO.

I would suggest keeping some intensity (1 or 2 times/week). But make your other rides REALLY easy. I would probably keep to the 8 weeks.

Also, try being less rigid, doing your hard days on the days you feel GREAT at the start, if your legs don't feel great, do an EASY ride.

 

[2fst4u]

I don't think the answer is necessary mutually exclusive. Both approaches may work better than limping through a hard workout and not being able to complete it or perform it well.

I would pick the "extend total time" option if given the choice. You are still getting in all your quality workouts, plus adequate rest, so you should probably be better off than doing less. I think the problem with that is that it assumes you don't have a deadline on the training plan, such as a peak race. From a practical perspective, if your goal race is 8 weeks away then you simply can't extend your time.

Your right either choice would be better than overtraining.

It's early enough in the season where I can plan in an extra week or 2 thus completing all the workouts yet extending the 8 week plan to 10 or so. As long as this doesn't kill the training affect that the original program intended to have.

 

[2fst4u]

Even the Pros struggle with the fatigue/burnout.
http://heatherirmiger.com/12/i-love-hate-august/

The best advice I can give is listen to your body. If you really feel you need to recover more, YOU DO.

I would suggest keeping some intensity (1 or 2 times/week). But make your other rides REALLY easy. I would probably keep to the 8 weeks.

Also, try being less rigid, doing your hard days on the days you feel GREAT at the start, if your legs don't feel great, do an EASY ride.

The thing is this program sometime calls for 3 days of intensity so I'm afraid to skip workouts when tired. but the overall principle is not to overtrain. It's the classic battle between balancing training stimulus with proper recovery. When I figure it out i'll let you know :madman:

 

[flargle]

When I figure it out i'll let you know :madman:

There's no reason to bang your head against the wall over it. As long as you are making gains with your training, you are succeeding. Enjoy the process.

Here is one way of thinking about it: Suppose there were actually some optimal amount of quality training for you, your level of fitness, the amount of time you have available to train, your goals, yadda yadda. I think you would agree with two statements:
1) Given a certain volume of training, it would be more productive to do a little less quality training than optimal, than to do too much.
2) The TCCP, or any generic training program, can't possibly nail the personal, theoretically optimal amount of quality training. It's either more or less quality work than optimal.

IOW you simply have to concede, from the very beginning, that your training will be suboptimal, but that doesn't mean you won't see gains.

 

[Poncharelli]

Another solution might be to reduce the reps of your intervals.

If a workout calls for 5x3' VO2 max intervals, do 3x3'. But still complete the required ride time with zone 2. (If the day calls for 1.5 hours, still do 1.5 hours)

Or if 2x20' LT intervals. Instead do 2x15'.

Intervals is usually where the damage comes from, so it makes sense to reduce it if you're constantly feeling too fried. But still keep the daily ride time the same, and fill in the time beyond the intervals with zone 2.

Just curious. How old are you?

 

[whybotherme]

the answer to the question, "less work, better results?" is IMO "no."

you can train effectively for whatever the amount of time you have to put in, but will you get better results with less time? not in my opinion. not unless you had a lot of "junk miles" or were not working on your weaknesses when investing more time.

i wouldn't let that discourage me though if i were you. in my training i work toward my personal best with whatever resources i have on hand (usually time limited, but other factors apply). i do try to measure my performance against others (racing) but in the end it doesn't matter where i place. what matters is that i did the best i could do on that day. i am healthy and fit and i win (no matter finishing position!). winning is nice, but only one person puts in the fastest time of the day.

 

[2fst4u]

Another solution might be to reduce the reps of your intervals.

If a workout calls for 5x3' VO2 max intervals, do 3x3'. But still complete the required ride time with zone 2. (If the day calls for 1.5 hours, still do 1.5 hours)

Or if 2x20' LT intervals. Instead do 2x15'.

Intervals is usually where the damage comes from, so it makes sense to reduce it if you're constantly feeling too fried. But still keep the daily ride time the same, and fill in the time beyond the intervals with zone 2.

Just curious. How old are you?

I'm 38 so... yeah that has an impact but I wont admit it!

 

[Poncharelli]

I'm 38 so... yeah that has an impact but I wont admit it!

IMO, 38 is still a good age for handling training load. Especially loads as written in these training books.

You might want to improve/add "off-the-bike" recovery activities.
-Sleep (that is a huge one).
-Massage
-some easy yoga (restorative)
-Naps if possible
-Better diet with good protein intake
-Leg elevation
-Cold water on the legs
-And my new favorite, hitting the foam roller

the only problem is that these things take time, but IMO, are just as important as the workouts themselves

 

[millennium]

It's probably the intensity and not the volume that would cause you to be fatigued all of the time. Also, my response might differ depending on how long you've been working training regularly. But, in general, I would first make sure your recovery efforts are strong (enough sleep, balanced diet, consuming carbs right after hard workouts, etc.). Second, I would make sure that your plan already has some off-days (I have not seen the Time Crunched program for a long-time, so I don't recall it specifically). Third, I would cut back on some of time doing intense work (as Poncharelli said)--maybe cut out one or two of the hard intervals and replace with easy riding. Finally, if you just started training regularly, maybe a few days off would be best (i.e. extending the program a bit).

Good luck!

 

[perrygeo]

My guess is that you set the intensity level too high to begin with. Its better to apply steady pressure through consistent, moderately-hard workouts rather than going so hard one day that you're forced to ditch the next workout.

IOW stick to the game plan but do ALL your intervals a notch easier.

On the other hand, don't be afraid of fatigue. IMO most cyclists are too quick to prescribe rest simply because they feel fatigued a few days in a row. Clinical overtraining is actual very very hard to accomplish - If you feel so deeply fatigued that it starts affecting your life, if you see physical signs of overtraining and you simply cant perform your workouts at the same intensity, then its time to take some serious rest. But for the most part, we just need to HTFU and accept that our legs might be tired for a couple weeks.

 

[2fst4u]

IMO, 38 is still a good age for handling training load. Especially loads as written in these training books.

You might want to improve/add "off-the-bike" recovery activities.
-Sleep (that is a huge one).
-Massage
-some easy yoga (restorative)
-Naps if possible
-Better diet with good protein intake
-Leg elevation
-Cold water on the legs
-And my new favorite, hitting the foam roller

the only problem is that these things take time, but IMO, are just as important as the workouts themselves

Good list here-I do all except cold water and leg elevation. This year I'm making sure to do the recovery items even better!

 

[2fst4u]

It's probably the intensity and not the volume that would cause you to be fatigued all of the time. Also, my response might differ depending on how long you've been working training regularly. But, in general, I would first make sure your recovery efforts are strong (enough sleep, balanced diet, consuming carbs right after hard workouts, etc.). Second, I would make sure that your plan already has some off-days (I have not seen the Time Crunched program for a long-time, so I don't recall it specifically). Third, I would cut back on some of time doing intense work (as Poncharelli said)--maybe cut out one or two of the hard intervals and replace with easy riding. Finally, if you just started training regularly, maybe a few days off would be best (i.e. extending the program a bit).
Good luck!

I'm a seasoned guy (8 years) with a good aerobic base and excellent nutrition (probably too anal sometimes)

Thanks for the input man-less intensity might be the ticket when needed. I just wanna get fast as possible and sometimes that desire overrides good training decisions.

 

[2fst4u]

My guess is that you set the intensity level too high to begin with. Its better to apply steady pressure through consistent, moderately-hard workouts rather than going so hard one day that you're forced to ditch the next workout.

IOW stick to the game plan but do ALL your intervals a notch easier.

On the other hand, don't be afraid of fatigue. IMO most cyclists are too quick to prescribe rest simply because they feel fatigued a few days in a row. Clinical overtraining is actual very very hard to accomplish - If you feel so deeply fatigued that it starts affecting your life, if you see physical signs of overtraining and you simply cant perform your workouts at the same intensity, then its time to take some serious rest. But for the most part, we just need to HTFU and accept that our legs might be tired for a couple weeks.

The intensity is really high on the TCTP and wears you down. It makes you fast but for a short time frame-he compares it to a flipping the switch on and off. I may re work the interval schedule to make it fit my needs better but keep the general structure.

 

[perrygeo]

The intensity is really high on the TCTP and wears you down. It makes you fast but for a short time frame-he compares it to a flipping the switch on and off. I may re work the interval schedule to make it fit my needs better but keep the general structure.

Are you using a power meter?

 

[2fst4u]

Are you using a power meter?

No power meter, but would love to have one, expense being the main issue. Most guys use it on their road bikes, right??

 

[perrygeo]

No power meter, but would love to have one, expense being the main issue. Most guys use it on their road bikes, right??

Yeah it is expensive and typically a road bike only thing (though you can get an MTB version which is even bigger $)

The reason I ask is that I still suspect that you are pushing too hard in your intervals - A power meter allows you to see precisely how hard you're going and lets you gauge your effort much more carefully. Without a power meter or a finely honed sense of perceived exertion, its difficult to know if you're going at the proper intensity. Try to ere on the side of too easy. I realize that the time crunched cyclist plan is high-intensity and I'm not suggesting you make it anything but high-intensity. .. just ease up a little bit, still hard but not quite as insanely hard, and I think you'll find that you can complete the intervals and stay fresh enough to stick with the plan.

To use power meter lingo, I do some intervals at 350 watts and others at 430 watts .. both are "high intensity" but I can keep the 350 watts going for FAR longer than the 430 watt intervals. They are both subjectively "high intensity" but the efforts are a world appart in terms of how long the interval lasts, the rest period needed, the amount of recovery needed the next day, etc. So if you're trying to do intervals based on these vague, subjective intensity levels (rather than precise wattage levels), you really need to experiment to get the correct intensity.