[Vaughn]

Seeing some of that fine photographic footage on the Rose to Toads epic from this last weekend got me thinking about our own 40 mile Rose to Heavenly epic this weekend up there as well. I am just irritated coming off the TRT and dropping all the way down to Spooner on a fireroad. Let me know what you think about this letter to the nevada state parks. If you know anybody to whom this could be specifically directed that would be great.

"I just wanted to forward a couple questions and comments from my biking experience in your outstanding park this weekend.

First of all, I want to thank you for opening the southern edge of the Spooner Lake trail to cyclists. This is the fourth time in seven years that I have ridden through from Mount Rose on the Tahoe Rim Trail on the way to Kingsbury Grade and beyond. This is the first time I have not had to ride out on the very busy Hwy 28 at the Spooner Park entrance and skirt along the very narrow shoulder and jersey barrier trying to get up to the Spooner pass. That was a very welcome discovery. Last time we did it, we hiked our bikes along the lake edge until we could climb up and over to the highway 50, just to avoid that scary piece of busy Hwy 28 down below.

Is there any public place that the Nevada Parks keeps statistics on it's user mix for specific recreation areas? I would like to know what is the justification to close the Tahoe Rim from Hobart Road to Spooner Summit? I understand it is NOT wilderness area. When coming from the Tahoe Meadows south we cyclists have to bypass that TRT entrance and instead drop all the way down to Marlette and then drop even further all the way to Spooner. Not only are we dropping several thousand feet of elevation that we have to partially regain to get back to Spooner Summit , but we are doing it on the fireroad access that is a tedious experience at best. Then we through travelers are treated with a one mile ride up HWY 50 to the TRT trail head south with cars, RVs, and Semis charging past at 65 MPH.

Coming down from Marlette to Spooner, only a fool would not have speed control considering the amount of foot and cycle traffic coming up that nontechnical steep hill from Spooner to ride the Flume. That hill (hobart road?) is not a gratifying experience in an otherwise sentinel day of cycling. I would frankly prefer to stay up on the TRT and make my way over to the climb up the Kingsbury bench without the extra crowded drop down to Spooner lake.

The exception to this would be if there was a singletrack that one could ride all the way down to Spooner. I am wondering about the route between Spooner Lake and Marlette Lake. I see that the parks has kindly built a nice hiking trail that climbs up to Marlette paralleling the road. Considering how many cyclists access Marlette and the flume, it seems a good idea to let the hikers be separated over there. At the same time, we dirt cyclists much prefer the narrow granite bejeweled single track that is the hallmark of the east rim of the Tahoe Rim trail. If a hiking only trail can be put in why not a biker trail as well. I would bet there are many many more cyclists getting up to Marlette and beyond than hikers.

I see that there is a shuttle service offered at the Spooner Lake to take riders up to Tahoe Meadows. I am not sure I agree with a Park sponsored shuttle service as it could create too much traffic up in the Tahoe Meadows, but nonetheless, these cyclists would be much more gratified if the last bit of the ride in to Spooner and their car was more challenging, shaded, speed controlled. If the shuttle service is intended to actually return a profit, I think it would have much more business if the last part of the trail was what mountain bikers look for; tight twisty swoopy singletrack all the way back to their cars, whether at Spooner or at Ponderosa.

Despite the incredible beauty from the famous Flume trail, it is a limited trail in all other areas. Flume flat, nontechnical, just with the occasional exposure. I think the Flume would be much more enjoyable to ride if there was some other payoff beside the Tunnel Creek or Spooner Road descent. We were able to ride the new TRT Kingsbury north trail extension. About 2.5 miles of descending trail, bypasses several miles of (paved) road, and is a stellar example for what the management group up at Spooner should be considering between Spooner and Marlette.

I come to Tahoe from the Chico area about eight times per summer. I bring family and friends who mountain bike. We spend money on dining and lodging. We concentrate our entertainment on biking. We frequent the many outdoor shops around the lake. We don't care for casinos and we don't enter the lake either. We have warmer lakes were we live. We just mountain bike. And we responsibly mountain bike. We wish there were more opportunities for singletrack for the mountain biker in the beautiful hills around Spooner Lake. We participate in bringing an economic benefit of very low environmental cost to your recreational region. There are many people like us, considering the number of happy cyclists we saw dotted up and down the entire east tahoe rim this past fine Saturday. All these people add money to your quiet mountain economy.

Until more east rim singletrack trail opportunities becomes the case, we will spend the bulk of our energy and money in the areas on the North and South of the great Lake Tahoe that are better developed with the holy grail of mountain biking, which is singletrack.

I specifically ask that the Tahoe Rim Trail be opened through to Spooner summit and that a new trail for mountain bikers be made from Spooner Lake up to Marlette Lake. Just to know that these kinds of ideas could be on the table for the Tahoe state parks would be very hopeful.

Thanks for considering these thoughts"

 

[TahoeBC]

First of all, I want to thank you for opening the southern edge of the Spooner Lake trail to cyclists.

So I had not heard about this, if it's true great news, do they let you ride all the way to Spooner Summit from Spooner lake now. Figured they would never allow this cause people would start parking at Spooner summit killing there parking revenue and entrance fees.

As far as staying on the TRT to Spooner summit that trail is only suitable for horses, biking would not be fun on that trail, see exhibit A below

 

[TahoeSS]

They need to open the snowpeak part of the trt to bikes. It is a crime to keep that closed to bikes as it is the best way to skirt around all of that nonsense called Spooner Lake mtbiking. I hate the comercial part of cycling in Spooner. I think the shuttles should be stopped personally. I miss the quite days where you would only run into people who earned their descents. Nevada is all back asswards for the most part though. Simple logic seems to escape their decision process.

 

[Wherewolf]

Elitist attitude

...I think the shuttles should be stopped personally. I miss the quite days where you would only run into people who earned their descents. ...

That's rather elitist. According to you people shouldn't ride there until they are really fit. And you get to decide what "fit" is. Although I am not fit, I have not used the shuttle in many years. But I would have never ridden at Tahoe if it weren't for the shuttle. Over the years I have contributed many thousands of dollars to the Tahoe area economy that I otherwise would not have.

Not everybody who takes the shuttle ends up going down the Flume. There are plenty of other options for "earning" your descent. Not everybody can arrange a shuttle with others, and it is much more environmentally friendly to "car pool" in the shuttle.

Let's restrict the trail to runners because using a mechanical device such as a bike is not "earning" the experience.

 

[Vaughn]

Spooner bypass

I don't know how far around the south end of the lake you can bike. At the entry to the trail from the parking lot side, there are two huge signs telling cyclists to be respectful of other users, etc. The old signage there used to say no bikes of course. We just rode along the lake until catching that first right hand trail up to the Hwy 50 pullout. At the pullout there is now a fee post for people entering Spooner from that direction. I have no idea how far around the lake that trail goes, and frankly I would not choose to ride it more than to just get up to the highway because of the foot traffic.

As far as the shuttle, obviously Spooner Park recognizes the quality of the Tahoe Rim Trail that is OUTSIDE their jurisdiction and sees that people do enter Spooner Parks from TRT. At the same time, the trails that they supervise are...just the Flume...which is a must do, one time only. After that real mountain bikers are going to look elsewhere. I don't know if the shuttle is offered out of a break even altruism or just from trying to gain a financial edge.


I personally think the Nevada Parks folk just make it far too easy for the Tahoe Meadows section to just get beaten down and over run. I am not against shuttling, for goodness sake, we shuttled ourselves from Rose to Heavenly. Not riding as a loop. I think our arrangement is a lot different than actually advertising for shuttle clientele by a Park service. If the park is going to collect fees from shuttles or even bicycles trodding across their property, I would like to see those fees go toward a nice five six mile section of TRT inspired single track down all the way down to Spooner Lake.

As far as the TRT closed section from Hobart to Spooner Summit, I am really unfamiliar with the decisions to keep that closed. There is plenty of wilderness around for hiking solitude. I would like to see it open or a bypass to keep one out of the Spooner Lake congestion.

At the same time, I am very thankful for the TRT in general. I am glad the trail association is continuing to improve the trail, such as adding in that Kingsbury north trail extension. Sweeetttt. The TRT is a world class trail which is literally worth traveling around the world to sample. If Spooner and Nevada Parks would understand this and act upon it, I do not think there would be any place better to ride. Anywhere.

Next on wish list... a Mt Rose wilderness bypass to Martis.

 

[nutballchamp]

I just looked at the Flume bike shuttle map for the first time in a while and it looks like the 2.6 mile section to Snow Valley Peak is open to bikes. It just says the 5.5 section is closed. Is this true?

https://www.theflumetrail.com/ridingmap/mainmap_high_res.jpg

 

[Vaughn]

Don't know

May be so. I might call to confirm. Looks hopeful. When we came out to the Hobart road at that TRT intersection where you have to drop down to Marlette, I do not remember seeing that sign at the edge of the meadows stating no bikes. I did not look hard for it, had been several years since being up there and figured it had gotten vandaled away. Maybe that No bikes sign was gone consistent with what you point out on the map. It appears open to Snow Peak with option to drop down to North Canyon. If so, that is a start.

 

[Vaughn]

Nope

TahoeSS is correct. Hobart to Snowpeak is closed

 

[TahoeBC]

I just looked at the Flume bike shuttle map for the first time in a while and it looks like the 2.6 mile section to Snow Valley Peak is open to bikes. It just says the 5.5 section is closed. Is this true?

https://www.theflumetrail.com/ridingmap/mainmap_high_res.jpg

That map has been wrong for years, I think Max jumped the gun on updating the map when he was told that section could be opened up for exchange for trail work to armor up some sections. That deal fell though though unfortunately, but print out a copy of that map to take along to show folks who might question you being there.

I was told the horse folks keep the Hobart to Spooner Summit section closed to bikes.

 

[Jack Tupp]

Interesting topic. I'm glad it came up. I wanted to say something but my info came from a friends friend. So that discredits it by quite a bit. So the friend of a friends best friend is the president of the sierra club. Ok, Ok, stop booing. I don't know if it's a chapter president or the main man. I don't know how they run their orginization except they don't like us mountain bikers. Anyhow he got wind of all the controversy about riding the rim from tahoe meadows on odd days when your to ride it on even days only. So he hiked from spooner to tahoe meadows on an odd day to see for himself. Well he was pass by 150 mountain bikers during his couple hour hike. Of course he was outraged and is now lobbying to close that section of rim to mountain bikers and sounds crazy but also all of the rim trail. I'm not posting this to start sh*t. If their is a time to get organized this might be it.
Call me crazy but you heard it from your uncle Jack first.

 

[TahoeSS]

Call it what you want but I am old school and don't like having **** loads of people (commercial shuttlers) bombing down trt from the meadows as I am climbing back up. Most of the folks are clueless and would rather run you over as to not ruin their flow. I could care less about the flume part of the trail. Haven't been on it for a couple of seasons, much better/challenging ways to go. The trail to meadows is getting beat and if the hikers organize to stop mtbiking that section because of the huge amounts of commercial shuttles we all loose, "ellite" or not. So Nevada Parks allows commercial shuttles but doesn't open the bypass to Snowpeak for cyclist. Sounds back asswards don't you think? Why would you have never rode your bike in Tahoe if it weren't for a shuttle? The point of biking is to get in shape not shy away from the harder part (climbing). How is using a bike easier than running. Running is easier in my opinion. Carrying a bike plus your weight is more of a work out especially uphill. Either way I miss the more quite days in that area. I know it will never be the same because mtbiking and shuttling are almost synonymous these days. I know it's not your fault it is just the cool thing for people to do now. Beginners and experts a like can now ride the same trails regardless of skill or fitness levels. Just need a big ass bike and a shuttle to take you to the top. I will still be the one telling you good job as I pass you on a climb or pulling off to the side with a smile on my face if you have the more tech direction of travel. I am just venting and this is not to be taken personal by anyone, unless you want it to be. :thumbsup:

That's rather elitist. According to you people shouldn't ride there until they are really fit. And you get to decide what "fit" is. Although I am not fit, I have not used the shuttle in many years. But I would have never ridden at Tahoe if it weren't for the shuttle. Over the years I have contributed many thousands of dollars to the Tahoe area economy that I otherwise would not have.

Not everybody who takes the shuttle ends up going down the Flume. There are plenty of other options for "earning" your descent. Not everybody can arrange a shuttle with others, and it is much more environmentally friendly to "car pool" in the shuttle.

Let's restrict the trail to runners because using a mechanical device such as a bike is not "earning" the experience.

 

[fgiraffe]

huge amounts of commercial shuttles

I know, you're just venting, but huge amounts?? How may shuttles run to the meadow? One shuttle company, twice a day?

 

[Wherewolf]

Duuuh...

...I know it will never be the same because mtbiking and shuttling are almost synonymous these days. I know it's not your fault it is just the cool thing for people to do now. Beginners and experts a like can now ride the same trails regardless of skill or fitness levels...

I've been a beginner biker, starting over, about four times in the past ten years. You seem totally out of touch with what it is like to be a beginner, and you even seem scornful of them riding "your" trails without earning them. I would not be surprised if you'd also like to ban gears from "your" trails. Your exclusionary attitude is not much different than those of the Sierra Club. Those doing Rose to Toads soon will be shuttling too. I guess just because it is the "cool thing for people to do now."

... How is using a bike easier than running. Running is easier in my opinion....

I can't argue against your opinions on trail use. But as a former runner I can't let your statement regarding the difficulty of running vs. biking go unchallenged. There is a simple duuuh test. Can you run the same trails, same distance and times, as you bike? The majority of mountain bikers probably couldn't run for an hour, let alone all day. In running there is no sitting, coasting, eating, stopping to take photos, etc. And you have to carry your own weight. We all know really great mountain bikers who are grossly overweight, can ride all day, but most certainly couldn't run for even half an hour.

At 60+ and after nearly two years sitting on the couch my first ride was over 2 1/2 hours long. How many of you young folks that have ridden for many years could trail run that long? After just 15 more rides I did Mt. Rose to Burger Kinsgbury. In my running prime 25 years ago and 40 pounds lighter that would be pretty tough.

In five weeks I will be a beginner yet again. I am a 60+ year old, with two artificial knees, coming back from surgery after two months off, and with only 17 rides in the previous 26 months. I invite you to run along side me on my first ride back.

 

[TahoeSS]

I know, you're just venting, but huge amounts?? How may shuttles run to the meadow? One shuttle company, twice a day?

If I think it is a lot imagine what non mtbikers think. I should have known I would offend many people. Like I said, shuttling to the top of rides is the norm these days with the majority of newer/lazy riders I guess. I don't have to like it but I do have to accept it. I am on the trt at least 3 days a week so I do see a bit more than most weekend warriors.

 

[Wherewolf]

Case closed

... How is using a bike easier than running. Running is easier in my opinion....

Case closed:

Armstrong Gets a Piece of Humble Pie.. Lance Armstrong practically walked across the finish line of his first marathon in New York City, cramping, bandaged, and soaked in sweat. ... Armstrong experienced a dose of reality counter to his claim in the November, 2006, edition of Runner's World that a 2:45 to 3:00 marathon "wouldn't require crazy amounts of training, strict dieting."

One of the world's most highly trained aerobic athletes, and certainly a pretty good mountain biker, finished in 2:59:36. That's a good bit slower than I did 13 months after beginning running.

 

[TahoeSS]

Hey Wherewolf. You are taking everything off topic. It is about getting more trails opened up in the Marlette Spooner area. Not running, or riding with gears or doing a long point to point ride. I congratulate you on returning to mtbiking after being out for so long. Don't get all hurt as my post wasn't directed at you personally as I stated before. I am noticing a lot more shuttles to the top of rides in the whole Tahoe area in general. I am saying as hikers who hate mtbiking this will have an impact on trail usage for us. I saw a group of 15 the other day driving up to donner lake rim trail in trucks so they could ride down to the lake without much pedaling. As hikers see this (which a big group did) they start to get upset. I see it all of the time. It is very common on the South shore as well. The easier you make it for people to get to these trails i.e. driving to the top the more traffic you get on the downhill sections with not much concern for the trail or other users. This is the shuttling I am talking about. I carpooled last week after doing rose to toads (6 people in a tacoma). I do not believe beginners need to be shuttled to the top of trails. I worked my way up to the longer harder trails over time. You don't go to the ski hill and bomb double blacks your first day. I don't care if people from China come up here to ride. As I said before I will be encouraging you if I see you on the trail no matter where you may be from. Lots of people who just use shuttles to get to the top do not practice the "ride it don't slide it" style. You will have more respect for a trail if you have to climb up something as well as descend it. It is very difficult to ride up a trail that has been blown out by careless breaking before switchbacks. I can not believe I am the only one who notices this more and more in Tahoe. I am on the trails 15 hours or so each week so maybe that's why. Please come up from where ever you live and enjoy your National Forest Trails. I hope they stay open for us years to come. I am not optimistic tough. Hikers seem to have more pull than mtbikers. See you on the trails.

 

[rockymtnrider]

Not a fan of shuttles. When people mention it I think that isn't why I started riding. I like to earn the ride. If I'm not ready for an area then I have to keep riding so that I am.