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BMX:Our Shining Future
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Jackson Hole is an area and a BLM road west of Moab Utah. To access it take Kane Creek Road to Hurrah Pass. About a mile or two west of Hurrah Pass Jackson Hole road takes off to the right (north) where a sign for an "adventure ranch" (which appears to be a pretty cool place to stay by the way) is. There is a loop in this road that goes around an enormous half circular canyon with a mesa in the middle of it. At the end of the road you are at the Colorado River right across from the Potash plant. About half way through this trip is a large section of flat dark brown rock that is perfect for slickrock type riding.

I'd describe this road as rough, there are sections of deep sand and three inch round rocks. If you plan to ride all the way from Kane Creek you probably better be in pretty good shape. It's about ten to thirteen miles round trip from the turn off. Scenic. Scenic as all heck. Back in the loop where you are in the circular canyon it's like being in a huge ginormous room. Obviously not a lot of people go there. And if you can't SHARE IT with the other OHV vehicles of which all mountain bicycles are. Then don't bother.
 

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Nice photos.

I'm really not sure about the purpose or origin of your axe to grind viz. bikes being OHVs. Bikes may be OHVs technically and in your mind, but the potential level of environmental degradation caused by motorcycles, quads, etc, dwarfs by orders of magnitude the potential degradation caused by bikes.

Minnows and Great Whites are both fish, but no rational person would conflate the impact of a bite from the two.

jb
 

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verve825 said:
Nice photos.

I'm really not sure about the purpose or origin of your axe to grind viz. bikes being OHVs. Bikes may be OHVs technically and in your mind, but the potential level of environmental degradation caused by motorcycles, quads, etc, dwarfs by orders of magnitude the potential degradation caused by bikes.

Minnows and Great Whites are both fish, but no rational person would conflate the impact of a bite from the two.

jb
So from that comparison you are equating riding a bike being bitten my a minnow and riding an OHV is the same to the environment as being bitten by a Great White. Wow
 

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Hardline said:
So from that comparison you are equating riding a bike being bitten my a minnow and riding an OHV is the same to the environment as being bitten by a Great White. Wow
Yup. Not at all clear as to why you're acting shocked by this. The vast majority of of environmental degradation in places like Moab (for example) is caused by motorized OHVs. Regardless of a rider's competence or respect for the environment, it comes down to a simple matter of physics. A motorbike/quad/Jeep/buggy/etc. weighs way more than any mountain biker and bike. Ergo, their will be greater impact on land, soil, flora and fauna. This much is irrefutable. You're free to argue the extent of the impact, but I am totally secure in comparing bikes to minnows and motorized OHVs to sharks in this context.

Note that this is not a personal attack on OHV enthusiasts- their machines just weigh more.

jb
 

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CoolArrow
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eh, got any photos that show anything remotely interesting to ride, that matches the bating of your text? I just see dirt and sandy roads, of which Moab has in spades - no need to venture 13 miles to find them.

;)
 

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I wouldn't spend too much time trying to figure David out. I think the first line may hold some of the answers.

"My hobby is smoking legally licenced medical marijuana and so that just serves to make the economy go away so to speak. Make The World Go Away. A mountain bike is just another OHV. And so every time we sign some petition to get rid of OHV's then we are getting rid of ourselves! Which, it would seem, is something more than a few of us are motivated to do. Myself Included." :eek:ut:


Taken from this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=603119
 

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Tree Hugger
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verve825 said:
Nice photos.

I'm really not sure about the purpose or origin of your axe to grind viz. bikes being OHVs. Bikes may be OHVs technically and in your mind, but the potential level of environmental degradation caused by motorcycles, quads, etc, dwarfs by orders of magnitude the potential degradation caused by bikes.

Minnows and Great Whites are both fish, but no rational person would conflate the impact of a bite from the two.

jb

A Great White is not a fish, it's a shark. Big Difference. Just like the huge difference between Human Powered bicycles and Fuel burning OHVs.

I don't agree with David's logic, although technically bikes may fit the term "Off Highway Vehicles".

I am strongly opposed to any attempt to lump bikes in with motorized use.
 

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BMX:Our Shining Future
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I wouldn't spend too much time trying to figure david out

Just going a little ballistic on the OHV topic. Probably made a few enemies but I do have strong feelings on the subject. A double suspended bicycle is a very sophisticated off road vehicle. It's technology allows it to travel long rough off road places. Just like a motorized bike, atv, jeep. And that's exactly what we do with them. Ride the "wilderness". Hardcore greens hate our impact. They are fighting hard to ban us and winning.

A lot of us hate ATV's. Partly this is just a class thing. They are fat and lazy and we aren't. Politically though we are both OHV users who are impacting the ecosystem to some degree. We argue that they are doing more ripping but the fact is we are ripping. More or less. It annoys me that OHV bicycle riders are at war with ATV OHV's. It seems like roadies trying to ban mountain bike riders from the highway.

Politically it is just stupid. They (blue ribbon coalition) are fighting legally and lobbying away for mountain bikers while the IMBA is hanging with the Sierra Club. Maybe we should be a little grateful for what the OHV crowd has been doing for us?

Personally I ride a LOT of ATV created "roads" on the Mountain Bicycle. I don't post a lot of this stuff since it's not legal. This morning I met a man at Uranium bicycles who has built MILES of bicycle trail in the BLM. Huge loops. I like these characters who MAKE trail. That includes ATV's. Well that's my two cents worth. I realize I am in the minority on this topic. Sorry for the flames guys.
 

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CoolArrow
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davidarnott said:
Just going a little ballistic on the OHV topic. Probably made a few enemies but I do have strong feelings on the subject. A double suspended bicycle is a very sophisticated off road vehicle. It's technology allows it to travel long rough off road places. Just like a motorized bike, atv, jeep. And that's exactly what we do with them. Ride the "wilderness". Hardcore greens hate our impact. They are fighting hard to ban us and winning.

A lot of us hate ATV's. Partly this is just a class thing. They are fat and lazy and we aren't. Politically though we are both OHV users who are impacting the ecosystem to some degree. We argue that they are doing more ripping but the fact is we are ripping. More or less. It annoys me that OHV bicycle riders are at war with ATV OHV's. It seems like roadies trying to ban mountain bike riders from the highway.

Politically it is just stupid. They (blue ribbon coalition) are fighting legally and lobbying away for mountain bikers while the IMBA is hanging with the Sierra Club. Maybe we should be a little grateful for what the OHV crowd has been doing for us?

Personally I ride a LOT of ATV created "roads" on the Mountain Bicycle. I don't post a lot of this stuff since it's not legal. This morning I met a man at Uranium bicycles who has built MILES of bicycle trail in the BLM. Huge loops. I like these characters who MAKE trail. That includes ATV's. Well that's my two cents worth. I realize I am in the minority on this topic. Sorry for the flames guys.
Regardless of the technology, its still a bicycle, and impacts the landscape as such. It's not about the technology, it's not about hating or class wars. Even though we can travel to out of the way places on them, they're not "Just like a motorized bike, atv or jeep" (or - just how are they similar, in regards to impact on the land?). It about the extent to which each impacts the system, and motorized OHV's make an exponentially larger impact on the landscape than bicycles (suspended or not - not everybody rides dh rigs).

Impact on the system. That's it. Not class, not hate, not the tech. It's about Impact. Bikes create far less impact - and for the purpose of restricting access, bikes should be excluded from the group "OHV".

And thanks for the pics :thumbsup:
 

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never ender
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I've ridden in several parts of the country where MTBs and motos/quads coexist just fine. I tend to think that there should be a little more cooperation between mountain bikers and the OHV crowd...not necessarily on XC-type singletrack, but I've been to moto-oriented OHV areas that are plenty of fun on an MTB as well. If responsible public use is a reason for the preservation of open space, and OHVs can be used responsibly, then OHVs and bikes should be natural allies.

That said, jhazard is right on the money that it's all about impact. I've been involved in building and maintaining a lot of multi-use bike/hike/horse trails, and while I'm not really sure what it takes to build an OHV-safe trail, I can tell you that the impacts of a bike and a moto or quad are worlds apart. I wouldn't want to see a moto on any of the MTB trails I've worked on. So while I think it would make sense for MTB riders and moto guys to cooperate better in general, especially these days when recreational open spaces are being developed or shut down all over the country, the two uses aren't always compatible on specific trails.

Also, sharks really are fish.
 

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BMX:Our Shining Future
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Also, sharks really are fish

love is fine when it's understood
especially when you're feelin good
you got me flippin like a flag on a pole
c'mon sugar let the good times roll
 

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BMX:Our Shining Future
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
well I asked my friend
where that black smoke was comin from
he just changed the subject and said
wonder if it could snow some

so I left him sippin his tea
got in my chariot
and went down town to see
what the trouble could be

this time
 

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Over the Hill
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In California, outside of the deserts, motos have few places left to ride. We ride shared trails in the Southern Sierra Nevadas, have never had problems. We hear them coming and we step off the trail. Many places would not have single track if not for the motos and I think it is wrong to run them out.

Pic: Troy/Kennedy Meadows

Dean
 

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is buachail foighneach me
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dstepper said:
In California, outside of the deserts, motos have few places left to ride. We ride shared trails in the Southern Sierra Nevadas, have never had problems. We hear them coming and we step off the trail. Many places would not have single track if not for the motos and I think it is wrong to run them out.

Pic: Troy/Kennedy Meadows

Dean

Dean, the soils and terrain in the photos you just posted are almost as ideal as it get's, as far as environmental impact is concerned, for OHV trails. Very dry with sandy/rocky soil. Spend some time anywhere that sees more rainfall, or has more organic soil, maybe even over clay/silt, and you would probably be singing a slightly different tune.
 

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Drinking the Slick_Juice
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everytime it rains down here in Texas , people go out in there motorized vehicles and dig the biggest ruts ,5 years ago the trails were fine .
 

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Over the Hill
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sean salach said:
Dean, the soils and terrain in the photos you just posted are almost as ideal as it get's, as far as environmental impact is concerned, for OHV trails. Very dry with sandy/rocky soil. Spend some time anywhere that sees more rainfall, or has more organic soil, maybe even over clay/silt, and you would probably be singing a slightly different tune.
I know what you mean, but maybe you are unfamiliar with the Southern Sierras...few people ride MTB there, soils conditions change fast up there. Little Horse Trail was just one trail there are others in the areas that are loamy and in the erosion spots the forest service uses pavers. Downieville is a shared use area and we all get along fine. This thread just goes to show that each land manger should be making trail use decisions for their areas not a global nationwide policy.

Pic: Cannell Plunge Trail just below Sherman Pass elevation about 9K so it gets plenty of summer thunder showers. The other with the old bucked Sequoia is Just Outstanding near Kernville.

Dean
 

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Rolling
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chickenlegs said:
Expected pics and words about Wyoming. Not so much I guess.
No kidding. Jackson Hole is a ski area in Wyoming. The place here is Jackson's hole. And it was used by motos way before mountain bikers arrived.

IMO Amassa back is a much better ride...especially if you add Jackson's trail or even better, rockstacker and Jackson's.. You see the same stuff from above. Sure you see a jeep here and here but once you hit the ST, it's all MTB.

 
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