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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just got a link from a friend of mine about a presentation made by Tony Ellsworth here he claims that his bikes with ICT are better than the rest of the designs, the thing is that comparing the efficiency of the ICT with the VPP the ICT is about 99% effective and the VPP is like 70% effective meaning that only 1% of your power gets lost in the suspension where as in the VPP is like 30%. Its a bold claim but is it true.?

I need some technical info to shut my friend up!

Here is the link

http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/ict_demo/main.html
 

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Ultimate Poseur
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Tony is a marketer of very nice looking and presumably great riding frames, first and foremost. So of course his crap is better than everyone else's. He used to advertise his frames as being 100% efficient. I think he's a lying, deceitful weasel that should probably be in politics instead of the cycling industry.
 

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Tony, Tony, Tony.......

Ellsworth makes some fantastic bikes, having said that, so do a lot of other manufacturers. The biggest problem that I have always had with Tony Ellsworth is that in order for him to sell his bikes he always has to put down other peoples products. I am old school in that I feel that if you have a superior product you should not have to trash other people products in order to proove your point, instead you should let your product do the talking, if it is superior the consumers will recognize it. I also think that Tony is one of the most hated (maybe too strong of a word) people in the cycling industry because of the way he treats people. I am sure he has a loyal following, however more than a handful of times I have heard of nightmare stories with past dealers. Every year that I have attended interbike and I go to the sales presentation with Ellsworth they put down some other company, why? I know this is a business but it gets really old when all you can do to further your company is put down others.
 

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Come on, you should be able to figure this out...Every company wants to convince you that their design is the best and they all have pretty pictures and computer generated graphics to "prove" this. Thats what companies do to stay in business. The fact is, there is no "best" design. If there truly was a "best" design, than there would be no reason for anyone to buy anything else. Suspension designs have come along way, and I think that a good case can be made that some are more efficient in certain applications than others, but that does not make them the best for everyone and all conditions. We all have our preferences and many stick with brand loyalty no matter what. People just have to decide if they are going to judge products based on Marketing BS or based on real world performance for their needs.
 

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Lord of the Chainrings
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Good grief! I have never ridden one of those. That said...
Everybody says that their suspension design is the greatest!
I say, if the bike were so great, why doesn't he sell a ton of 'em?
 

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The man is selling bikes and not out to make friends with his competitors. Unless you've heard him slander Intense, Santa Cruz, Specialized, etc. in his presentations then that is wrong otherwise I would say that everything else is just good marketing and good business. To market your product you need only advertise and get the word out. To market your product successfully you've got to draw comparison to your competition and thats seems to be what Tony is doing.

I think that referencing Tony as the most 'hated' man in the industry is largely out of line though. Aggressive, audaciaous, dynamic sometimes cocky and overconfident? Perhaps but the same can be said about Donald Trump. Looks to me as if Ellsworth is going to be in business a very long time and Tony will be an riding an Epiphany all the way to the bank to meet Mr. Trump.

What I did find funny in the presentation though was when Tony started to get into the complex math equation involved with the Energy Loss chart (ICT in Action). About 26 seconds in he says, "D1 is the off-force line torque that's being applied..." then he gazes up to the right for a few seconds longer as if he were thinking to himself, "...umm...I think that's right or it might be wrong. Oh well, I f#?k it, I pretty much lost my audience at this point so I'll just keep my composure while pretending to be an advanced mathematics professor." I appreciate the attempt though Tony but I got a 'C' in calculus b/c I looked cute sleeping.

Wood Finger Cheek Brown Skin

"D1 is the off-force line torque that's being applied..."

Lip Cheek People Brown Hairstyle

"...umm...I think that's right or it might be wrong. Oh well, I f#?k it, I pretty much lost my audience at this point so I'll just keep my composure while pretending to be an advanced mathematics professor but what the heck...gotta slang this rock." LOL - Go Tony!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I know is marketing but just like Tony came up with all this Info to prove his point I imagine their is somewhere some kind of technical data to prove that the other designs are good options too.
 

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alienICE said:
I think that referencing Tony as the most 'hated' man in the industry is largely out of line though. Aggressive, audaciaous, dynamic sometimes cocky and overconfident?
Then I think that you don't know much about history of TE and Ellsworth business practices regarding people that frequent MTBR. He's not the mosted hated man in MTBR circles because he's an arrogant wanker. His actions and the actions of his company have been debated ad nauseum elsewhere on MTBR. He's a spin doctor pure and simple. I love the look of his bikes and I'm sure they ride sweet, but I'll never own one.
 

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Who cares how efficent it is, his stuff breaks. He has had to redesign his truth a couple of times, because as efficent as it is, his rocker arms break.

He maybe 99% efficient when it is new, but 99% piece of crap when it breaks!
 

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moff_quigley said:
Then I think that you don't know much about history of TE and Ellsworth business practices regarding people that frequent MTBR. He's not the mosted hated man in MTBR circles because he's an arrogant wanker. His actions and the actions of his company have been debated ad nauseum elsewhere on MTBR. He's a spin doctor pure and simple. I love the look of his bikes and I'm sure they ride sweet, but I'll never own one.
I am taking what its in front of me at face value. I have little to no history regarding these questionable business practices you'd be refering too but I am all ears if you have a point to make especially if in regards to customers. I guess the other thing is why we would be concerned with their shady business practices (from a rider/customer standpoint)? You may have to point to something specific and founded that highlights anything shady. As a customer though, I am concerned with quality, service, etc and not so much how Ellsworth deals with their competition.
 

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Hans from Ibis / formerly SC / Bontrager jumping in here.
Tony has a misunderstanding or he's in so deep he can no longer extract himself gracefully ;) It's just wrong.:blush:
Common sense would dictate that a 70% efficient bike would be terrible to ride. Probably like riding on a flat tire or worse.

I have tested the Blur climbing on the road with no lock out and 30% sag and found that the rear shock did not move. No bobbing during climbing. No substantial power loss.

There is a lot more to it than is shown on the Ellsworth site. The main thing missing is that he is only considering chain tension as the force that will cause unwanted suspension movement. In fact, there is a larger force at work in the mass transfer of the rider during acceleration that must be considered.

I encourage you to ride the bikes you are interested in rather than drinking any Coolaid.:D

Hope this helps and I don't get any flaming dog poo on my door step from Tony

H
 

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I fix choppers
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Fanaticbiking said:
Who cares how efficent it is, his stuff breaks. He has had to redesign his truth a couple of times, because as efficent as it is, his rocker arms break.

He maybe 99% efficient when it is new, but 99% piece of crap when it breaks!
Ab-so-effin'-lutely! Ellsworth is the hype master. I broke two of his frames and I know many people that have broken his stuff. I was riding an old Heckler, then broke two Ellsworths, and happily got back onboard a Santa Cruz (a Bullit and now a Heckler). I mean what good is a "lifetime" warranty if you are having to send the thing back every few months? "Less efficient" riding time beats "efficient" warranty downtime everytime. Granted Santa Cruz bikes break too, but at far lower percentage. :thumbsup:
 

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just rub some dirt on it
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I'll pile on. TE is a jack a$$. I live in San Diego and some years ago I had a couple of run ins with him out on the trail. I think that Stone Brewery got the name "Arrogant Bastard" after meeting Tony. He gives a lifetime warranty and then changes the design and charges the consumer for the latest rear or front triangle saying they don't make that
years triangle anymore but for an extra $$$$ you can get the "new design". His CS is the worst. Do a search on the User Name "Tony Ellsworth " and read his post "The Ellsworth warranty-the rest of the story" it's very long but worth the laughs...seems the customer is always wrong.
 

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what is the difference between ICT an HL

Please, can anybody simply explain to non technically educated and non native speaker the difference between so called ICT and standard Horst Link. For me it looks the same and I should expect that TE must have licenced his link from Specialized. Am I true or wrong ???
 

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Did anyone else notice that in order for this whole concept to work, you have to be in specific gear, if you are in any other gear it all goes to hell. What about braking?

Is it me or does anyone else think ellsworth bikes look they were made in someones basement in the 90's, bad colors, a bunch of unfinished different materials.
 

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Lord of the Chainrings
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SKULLY said:
I'll pile on. TE is a jack a$$. I live in San Diego and some years ago I had a couple of run ins with him out on the trail. I think that Stone Brewery got the name "Arrogant Bastard" after meeting Tony. He gives a lifetime warranty and then changes the design and charges the consumer for the latest rear or front triangle saying they don't make that
years triangle anymore but for an extra $$$$ you can get the "new design". His CS is the worst. Do a search on the User Name "Tony Ellsworth " and read his post "The Ellsworth warranty-the rest of the story" it's very long but worth the laughs...seems the customer is always wrong.
I'm thirsty!....
 

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Um, er, what is the efficiency of a cracked/broken frame?
I have to imagine that pedalling one, depending on the crack is:
1. Impossible = 100% efficient. That is no power output by the rider, no forward motion. 0/0=100%
2. Possible = 50% efficient. If you use the coefficient of the torque range of the chain in the middle cog coupled with the downward pressure applied to a cracked downtube, forward momentum is half of what a complete/not broken frame is.
 

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hanssc said:
Common sense would dictate that a 70% efficient bike would be terrible to ride. Probably like riding on a flat tire or worse.
THANK YOU for pointing out what should be obvious. 30% loss would mean truly miserable riding. He is pulling percentages out of his tushy.

hanssc said:
I have tested the Blur climbing on the road with no lock out and 30% sag and found that the rear shock did not move. No bobbing during climbing. No substantial power loss.
Ditto. Thats what sold me on VPP. And more recently on the DW-Link. :thumbsup: But the truth is, I've enjoyed Ellsworth's bikes as well. My brother owns one and loves it. They are great bikes. My beef with Ellsworth's schtick is just that: its a schtick. Marketing spin is fine in moderation, but really, these are BIKES and shouldn't require bogus physics to be enjoyed. Oh, and his customer service seems to be wanting as well. A couple of bad experiences is one thing, but he has pissed off a few too many people.

Hans, say hi to Chuck Ibis for me. :p

-Benja
 
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