Mountain Bike Reviews Forum banner
1 - 20 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
469 Posts
I love it!

From the blog:
6. It will not, contrary to popular belief, be named the DavidCopperfield. I actually lobbied hard for that, but there's a long standing tradition of naming bikes here, one that strictly forbids naming bikes after magicians OR Dickens novels. So that was an argument I was bound to lose.
 

·
Tulsa
Joined
·
1,085 Posts
i "Please don’t send us any pictures of that guy in Colorado going off a jump. We’ve seen it. We still think that high-impact riding in huge terrain with lots of gnarl is not the kind of thing you should be doing on a 29″ wheel. We think this because we have a hard enough time keeping 26″ wheels together in this terrain, on our own bikes and those of everyone else we know who charges hard."

heheh, reminds me of a recent rant, but the videos from Colorado usually are really cool so maybe the cal dood is jealous
 

·
trail rat
Joined
·
7,825 Posts
Sah-weet!

The reason for this is partly our compulsive need to rein in the internet armchair engineers of Poland before they get too carried away, and partly because we enjoy watching our concepts get kicked around by the public with all the delicacy of a dirt lot grudge soccer match between rival gangs of field workers.
:D

I've endured lectures sitting slackjawed and drunk in Crested Butte at the end of Wes Williams' long pointy index finger sometime back in the 1990s when he was calling them 28″ers because the Continental touring tires he was touting measured out to that. Mountain biking's hippie dad, Gary Fisher, even gave me a pair of tires - a Panaracer Smoke 700×45 and a Bruce Gordon Rock and Road - for a URT titanium/alunimum project that Mark Hoffman was working on around 1997 or so.
:cool:
Steam turbines are probably not the best way to power commuter cars. Nettles shouldn't be used as toilet paper. Enough. I think you understand where I'm going. Rather than dig my hole any deeper, I'll let the engineers argue about the "why we're not re-inventing freeriding or jump bikes with a big wheel" line of thought from here on out. End rant ~

3. It will not be made out of Exogrid titanium/carbon.

4. It won't be made out of bamboo, either.
:eek:ut:
Meanwhile, it's time for a weekend. We're gonna be busy testing bikes. Usually it's pretty fun, but you'd be surprised just how much messed up trouble we can get ourselves into:
:thumbsup:
 

·
Harmonius Wrench
Joined
·
8,254 Posts
Someone poked the wolverine one too many times it would seem. :D

I figured that it wouldn't be what they are saying it wouldn't be. Makes sense to me.

Anyway, the reasoning for not doing a long travel 29"er is not really making sense from this argument. Because 26 inch wheels are getting trashed? Then that begs the question: Should you abandon a wheel size if folks are trashing that wheel size on bicycles? Sheesh! What's a poor BMX-ican to do these days? :p

So, alot of interesting words to read, and entertaining at that- without saying much of anything. :rolleyes:
 

·
trail rat
Joined
·
7,825 Posts
Guitar Ted said:
Someone poked the wolverine one too many times it would seem. :D

I figured that it wouldn't be what they are saying it wouldn't be. Makes sense to me.

Anyway, the reasoning for not doing a long travel 29"er is not really making sense from this argument. Because 26 inch wheels are getting trashed? Then that begs the question: Should you abandon a wheel size if folks are trashing that wheel size on bicycles? Sheesh! What's a poor BMX-ican to do these days? :p

So, alot of interesting words to read, and entertaining at that- without saying much of anything. :rolleyes:
Well, yes. What I suspect you see in the shop you are in, it is like the shop I am in; everyone comes in and oggles and oooohs, and aaaahs the FR / DH / Big Hit bikes, and then test rides and buys an XC bike. The long travel stuff (six inches plus) accounts for maybe 5% of what we really sell.

Lenz is doing a great job in the six inch 29er market, and the riders who can afford them at doing great marketing. Fact is, a company still has to have sales to pay for the R&D that goes into a new bike. This 29er will be no different. Four inch 29er XC bikes may be plentiful, but that IS the biggest market segment right now.

I'm hoping they will produce a four point five to five point oh frame, since there are now plenty of five inch forks (120mm) to fit that category. A 29er BLT2 would give me a coprophagous grin. A yes, SCB shop employee pro deal, yummy! :thumbsup: :cool:

I love my Voodoo Canzo, and have not had wandering eyes or bike lust until now. I just think that SCB execution of the VPP is the best suspension design out there right now, balancing climbing vs descending vs weight vs durability, Polish armchair engineers be damned. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,083 Posts
Gee, I hope Mikesee doesn't read this or he'll be really upset that he's bee riding his 6" 29er all wrong :skep: and for heavens sake let's hope Devin nor Niner read this, they'll be totally heart broken to realise that they've designed and built bikes that are useless :rolleyes: and who only knows what Fox, RockShox, Manitou and Marzocchi are gona think after deciding to back this silly 5"+ travel segment :rolleyes: Hopefully if Mike or Larry read this they'll offer to build some wheels for those SC guys that don't taco, 29er and all ;)
 

·
graps the nettle
Joined
·
519 Posts
you're smarter than that, GT...

Guitar Ted said:
Anyway, the reasoning for not doing a long travel 29"er is not really making sense from this argument. Because 26 inch wheels are getting trashed? Then that begs the question: Should you abandon a wheel size if folks are trashing that wheel size on bicycles? Sheesh! What's a poor BMX-ican to do these days? :p

So, alot of interesting words to read, and entertaining at that- without saying much of anything. :rolleyes:
c'mon ted, you know what i meant. i never said a word about abandoning a wheel size because they are getting trashed. the bmx analogy only furthers your muddying of an already muddy tangent. we are choosing not to venture into the "possibly one day burgeoning DH 29" market" because at the moment all of our efforts there are concentrated around making the strongest bikes possible while shaving as much weight as possible without sacrificing strength.

can larger wheels be made sufficiently strong enough to withstand serious abuse? (pay attention here, lynx) yes. but there will be a weight penalty when compared with a SIMILARLY strong 26" wheel. just like a decent 26" wheel is pretty damn weak compared to a 20" hoop of similar weight (and similar material and construction quality, before anyone decides to jump into that wormhole of logic). this horse corpse has been beat so many times and so thoroughly that i am embarrassed to see it rising from the gluepot again... anyway, we already make some real big strong and kinda beefy long travel bikes (by long travel, i am referring to 7"+), and would prefer not to make them heavier, especially since that increase in weight wouldn't necessarily be yielding any increase in strength.

but agreed, we're not saying a whole lot yet that you haven't already quite accurately guessed.

and as an aside lynx, never have we insinuated that mikesee doesn't build strong wheels, or that niner and devin lenz aren't making decent bikes, or that there isn't quality suspension coming along now. we were specifically referring to the requests from certain corners to make bikes with MUCH more travel than are currently being made. not backpedaling, just clarifying for those with lacking a sense of humor and some comprehension skills...
 

·
Don't be a sheep
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
MtotheF said:
c'mon ted, you know what i meant. i never said a word about abandoning a wheel size because they are getting trashed. the bmx analogy only furthers your muddying of an already muddy tangent. we are choosing not to venture into the "possibly one day burgeoning DH 29" market" because at the moment all of our efforts there are concentrated around making the strongest bikes possible while shaving as much weight as possible without sacrificing strength.

can larger wheels be made sufficiently strong enough to withstand serious abuse? (pay attention here, lynx) yes. but there will be a weight penalty when compared with a SIMILARLY strong 26" wheel. just like a decent 26" wheel is pretty damn weak compared to a 20" hoop of similar weight (and similar material and construction quality, before anyone decides to jump into that wormhole of logic). this horse corpse has been beat so many times and so thoroughly that i am embarrassed to see it rising from the gluepot again... anyway, we already make some real big strong and kinda beefy long travel bikes (by long travel, i am referring to 7"+), and would prefer not to make them heavier, especially since that increase in weight wouldn't necessarily be yielding any increase in strength.

but agreed, we're not saying a whole lot yet that you haven't already quite accurately guessed.

and as an aside lynx, never have we insinuated that mikesee doesn't build strong wheels, or that niner and devin lenz aren't making decent bikes, or that there isn't quality suspension coming along now. we were specifically referring to the requests from certain corners to make bikes with MUCH more travel than are currently being made. not backpedaling, just clarifying for those with lacking a sense of humor and some comprehension skills...
Mike, this is completeley off topic but reading that blog reminded how much I miss your writing from the old Bike magazine days. Rarely do I laugh out loud like I do when reading your stuff, keep up the good work. Ever thought of writing a book?
 

·
Category Winner
Joined
·
6,095 Posts
MtotheF said:
just clarifying for those with lacking a sense of humor and some comprehension skills...
I believe the fact that Santa Cruz is going to the 29" wheel can be credited to my poor performance at the 2007 Hell Ride. They were all thinking "This guy does so well on his regular bike, so why is he sucking so much ass on our 26" wheels? Ahhhhh.... that's it!!! Eureka!! It's gotta be the wheels"

The rest is just math and boring stuff.

 

·
This place needs an enema
Joined
·
16,200 Posts
MtotheF said:
but agreed, we're not saying a whole lot yet that you haven't already quite accurately guessed.
Heya Mike-

Cool to see that you guys are pouring your collective thinkering into this project. Should be a great bike, whatever it is.

Happy to build you some test wheels in exchange for a test frame...;)

You know how to reach me if you need to...

MC
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,427 Posts
I thought I saw that wristband somewhere else.

teamdicky said:
I believe the fact that Santa Cruz is going to the 29" wheel can be credited to my poor performance at the 2007 Hell Ride. They were all thinking "This guy does so well on his regular bike, so why is he sucking so much ass on our 26" wheels? Ahhhhh.... that's it!!! Eureka!! It's gotta be the wheels"

The rest is just math and boring stuff.

https://teamdicky.blog.com/1381435/
 

·
Harmonius Wrench
Joined
·
8,254 Posts
MtotheF said:
c'mon ted, you know what i meant. i never said a word about abandoning a wheel size because they are getting trashed. the bmx analogy only furthers your muddying of an already muddy tangent. we are choosing not to venture into the "possibly one day burgeoning DH 29" market" because at the moment all of our efforts there are concentrated around making the strongest bikes possible while shaving as much weight as possible without sacrificing strength.
And I didn't say you said that, which is muddying up the whole works even more. Great. Looks like I was the one that poked the wolverine one to many times. Oh well......

I said, "that logic begs the question" :rolleyes:

And thanks for saying I am smarter than that. I appreciate that. :D :p

can larger wheels be made sufficiently strong enough to withstand serious abuse? (pay attention here, lynx) yes. but there will be a weight penalty when compared with a SIMILARLY strong 26" wheel. just like a decent 26" wheel is pretty damn weak compared to a 20" hoop of similar weight (and similar material and construction quality, before anyone decides to jump into that wormhole of logic). this horse corpse has been beat so many times and so thoroughly that i am embarrassed to see it rising from the gluepot again...
I hate to say it, but the blog post did mention guys trashing 26 inch wheels, did it not? ;)

anyway, we already make some real big strong and kinda beefy long travel bikes (by long travel, i am referring to 7"+), and would prefer not to make them heavier, especially since that increase in weight wouldn't necessarily be yielding any increase in strength.
Fair enough.

but agreed, we're not saying a whole lot yet that you haven't already quite accurately guessed.
Cool. :cool:

And just to tack on to what Rivet posted, I agree. I've always been a fan of your writing style and that blog post was very good. Maybe we need to pester you more to get this kind of rant out of you more often. ;) :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,789 Posts
2. It will not be a Bullit, Driver8 or V-10 with big wheels. All you freeride 29″ riders out there, and all you folks clamoring for a big-hit big wheeler, sorry to disappoint you. Much as we think there are a lot of really cool applications for big wheels, we're not even close to imagining that they pose any advantage over 26″ wheels when you're dangling more than a half a foot of suspension, bombing head-size rock garden sand hucking off ladders. Yeah, we know. They roll over things better. Please don't send us any pictures of that guy in Colorado going off a jump. We've seen it. We still think that high-impact riding in huge terrain with lots of gnarl is not the kind of thing you should be doing on a 29″ wheel. We think this because we have a hard enough time keeping 26″ wheels together in this terrain, on our own bikes and those of everyone else we know who charges hard.

Well first off hold your horses. You clearly have chosen what size to ride for us regardless of the frame size, haven't you? You point out the stiffness- May I point out that 20" are still stronger like you did? So why don't you build MTB with 20"? A good question. All negatives put forth about 29" wheel might be attributable to 26" as well by just by ogling from other degree or corner of 24".

You haven't conceded that mtb 135mm rear hub spacing was, defacto designed around 559mm wheel commonly & misinformedly called 26", which is closer to 26.6".

If there had been light and strong and wide tyres for mtb in 70' you presumably have been constructing 29ers for long and 26ers would be now nothing but novelty.
I agree that going longer travel doesn't mtach with 135mm hubs yet take things into your hands, don't be dormant and prematurely assess the wheel.
Get a light XC 150mm hub 12mm TA make a strong wheel and get us a carbon Nomad.

By saying that we oughtn't do anything more than XC on 29ers you represent what most bike companies deem. They think that 29ers are too fragile- and sure they are just as long as you create them as one of your offerings amongst 26ers which impose or carry over some many years' 559 habits.

In order to succeed in 29ers , as I hinted you, you need a separate department for big wheels. Silly? I bet that there are the best road bike manufacturers which specialize in those, whereas they are poor in mtb- same applies to some extent to 29ers. Take it or leave it. You are alrerady spread thin and offering one or you 29er models and having to cater for many more 26er models does not bode well for the former.
You won't have enough time and money to invest, to create, tout and advertise 29er specific parts (derailleurs, tyres, gearing etc)

Niner bikes just must do it. 29ers is the only thing they make. It is their bread and butter whereas you possess a bunch of marmelade jars just overlipping by a huge margin.
You will scrape a living on 26ers solely and won't sacrifice too much for 29ers. I see your standpoint. When their is something new 29" we will check it out, if not we will stick to small wheel. 29er is not your primary passion and this is a problem.
Any measurable forays or improvements were made by 29er devotees like Chris& Steve and Devin Lenz since they are pondering how to fine-tune the irregularities or misconceptions in the design not just dumping it on the big wheel.
No advancements form Evolve, Cannondale- why? The do fine on 26ers so they won't venture to uncharted waters they won't invest in polishing and shaping the new concept, which turns out too difficult.

You say something like:
"If the current design possibilities allow we will advance in 29er projects" while 29er specific designers would say:
"If there aren't design possibilities we will create&get them work for us no matter what funds it incorporates"

Your mileage may vary. In short I am dissapointed you can't get anybody to build you 150mm XC rear wheel for real Nomad 29er testing.
 

·
graps the nettle
Joined
·
519 Posts
Guitar Ted said:
I hate to say it, but the blog post did mention guys trashing 26 inch wheels, did it not? ;)
indeed it did. take 6'3" downhill racers, put them on 10" travel bikes, point them down world cup circuits, and you'd be amazed at how many wheels they go through in a season. hell, in some cases, in a single weekend. maybe even shocked. likewise, send some bikes out with the jump kids to the aptos post office and just look the other way. you can almost hear spokes breaking from 8 miles away. those may be extreme examples, but they are what have to take into account when considering our own design imperatives.

it's all good, as the kids like to say. there is so much really intense loyalty and passion amongst the riders of these wheels that we are bound to offend someone's sensibilities along the way. there's no way the bike we are coming out with will please everyone. that's not really possible when you take into account the wide variety of rider needs these days. but we're pretty certain that it will please US. and while that might seem self-centered, we have to hold true to something. and it's a lot more honest for us to admit that we are building a bike that we, collectively, like to ride, rather than just responding to what we perceive to be a marketing opportunity, or a new thing that nobody's built yet but that we aren't convinced will work so well given the laws of physics and such.

...the wolverine isn't poked. he's just having fun exploring viral marketing. and having fun testing a new 29" bike...
 
1 - 20 of 58 Posts
Top