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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently tried several trail bikes - SC Hightower, Pivot Trail 429, Evil Offering, Giant Trance adv pro... all in large, same trails
Ive ridden the Hightower the most and on different trails and have always come back reaffirming my like for it. The pivot was comfortable, rode it when i was really bagged so didn’t have a lot of energy to put the foot down but it was fine.
When i rode the Evil Offering a whole new world opened up that i can’t explain. The other two bikes are great, still prefer the Hightower, but the offering is stuck in my mind....the poppiness, if i can use that as a word, blew my mind and was so different.
But the longer i rode the offering the less comfortable i was getting with the overall cockpit. my seat bones were never comfortable on the flatter stuff and i was always adjusting my position, whereas with the others i just sat and everything felt fine.
Im aware of the difference in geometries but may not understand them practically. The HT STA is around 74 and the Offering is 77 i think so clearly that’s a decent size differences...but everything i read for trails like switchbacks, climbs technical suggest the Offering should have felt just fine and the HT not so much. So yes offering was more poppy but the HT managed just fine and yet i didn’t have the positioning issue.
I could never find a comfortable cruising position on the flowy straighter single track stuff on the offering.
Wondering if when i try to demo the offering again what adjustments i could do to enhance my experience? do i slide the seat back a few mm? add spacers to the stem?
Just hoping somewhen can give me a layman’s description of what i’m trying to understand here
 

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What are you doing with setting up the suspension pressures/damping and tire pressures when demoing these bikes? It can make a huge diff in ride quality and how the bike responds to inputs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i don’t have enough experience yet with FS bike to have my preferences. i go with what the tech dials in. Would that influence the cockpit would feel (i.e. positioning on a seat when on flat trails etc)? i can understand that would impact the ride of course.
 

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Single(Pivot)and Happy
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A poorly set up suspension can negatively affect your pedaling, causing discomfort, stress on muscles, etc.
 

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All that's happened is you've experienced and been honest about the drawback of all these new stupid steep STAs, they suck for general pedaling about on trails, great if all you do is climb real steep stuff to descend, but suck if you ride a wide variety of trails.

Want to prove this point to yourself, slammed the saddle as far back on the rails as you can to the max line and see what that feels like.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
that’s the exact quote i’m after, great to just climb and rip down but limited on the rest.
this makes me even more comfortable with the hightower despite rumours of an update coming. Update could see a steepened STA and then i may not like it as much (only speculation of course)
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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I'll add this, you only spend a fraction of the time comparatively descending and while I want the bike to descend well, I don't want it to be at the expense of feeling horrible at all other times. I've made the time of buying a bike that did that and I won't do that again. I want to be able to ride it all day and rip the descents, but I have to realize that's not the majority of the time.
 

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All that's happened is you've experienced and been honest about the drawback of all these new stupid steep STAs, they suck for general pedaling about on trails, great if all you do is climb real steep stuff to descend, but suck if you ride a wide variety of trails.

Want to prove this point to yourself, slammed the saddle as far back on the rails as you can to the max line and see what that feels like.
This.

The steep STA is putting you in a position that isn't comfortable. It may even explain why the bike is poppy, your weight distribution between the axles is different compared to the other bikes.

With all of the threads that keep popping up about "sore hands", the desire for offset posts and matters such as yours, I keep coming back to a saying from a guru who was active here on MTBR and run a VERY successful shop (Hammerhead Cycles in Texas). He said that only three things matter. Fit, fit and fit. If ones bike isn't comfortable or doesn't feel right, it won't be ridden or won't be ridden as much.

It sounds to me that the SC Hightower is the bike for you, and if you want different suspension characteristics, then get shock and fork custom tuned. The good folks on the Suspension forum will be able to help you with how to make that happen.

:thumbsup:
 

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Keep on Rockin...
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Steep STAs have their drawbacks and you are experiencing one of them.

The "new geo" is fantastic with its longer reach and slacker HTAs, but has gone too far with the STA thing. This is why the most recent frame I purchased was a Giant Trance 29. It's got all that new geo going on, but keeps a reasonable STA.

Some riders need a steep STA as they are on a very big bike with very long travel. Those bikes sag into their rear travel and then the front end tips up on steep climbs. They are bikes, IMO, suited for creeping up the hill so the rider can then "live for the downs", and not much else. They are bigger bikes not well suited to long pedally days in the saddle anyway.

If riders were honest with themselves with how much travel they really needed this whole super STA thing would not have got so carried away. Any skilled rider who's ridden a bike with a setup and travel that matches their trails knows how good it feels.

Arguing there is nothing wrong with being over-biked is a display of ignorance.
 

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EXORCIZE
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I recently tried several trail bikes - SC Hightower, Pivot Trail 429, Evil Offering, Giant Trance adv pro... all in large
A Large Offering is a much longer bike than a L HT, longer than all these. Try a M Offering - its reach is still longer than a L HT. Then you won't be hunched over, which changes the relationship of your sit bones to the saddle. Move saddle back a bit if need be.

Since you're looking at ~120mm bikes, you could also try a L Following - it should give you that same "poppy" experience.
 

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^^^ agree...except perhaps with the somewhat ad hominem last sentence.
Ha. I had to look up what "ad hominem" meant. Learn something new everyday. While not specifically directed at the OP at all, there was a bit of chain rattling there - you know, just to keep things at least a bit spicy on these boards. The over-biked discussions draw out emotions like the old wheel size debates. Oh, and way back when, my trail bike was a SC Bullit with a Super T.
 

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I ditched my slack STA bikes and ill never look back. Theres a lot of people with strong opinions on them trying to pass off their opinion as fact. For many, maybe most, the steep STA's are incredible... but 77 degrees is getting pretty nuts. I think 75 degrees is pretty damn steep, probably as much as id want to go forward.

regarding pop, I have a different take. Its the mini link bikes and their wonky travel curve. The evil, even though complicated looking, has one big old single pivot swinging the wheel around it. I've owned old giants, and test rode new giants and new and old santa cruz bikes, and while they often fit and feel great, they dont pop. Or they're unpredictable in the air as the rear wheel noodles about in some weird shaped travel curve.

Try for yourself. Find a bike with a slacker STA, but with high anti squat and a good single pivot (not a horst-link, which is actual a faux bar) rear end and see if its comfortable and poppy... I bet it will be!
 

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Try to get a ride on a orbea occam. 74.5 seat tube angle, enough anti squat enjoy pedaling, and it doesnt do that weird mini link thing in the air. I think that might be hard to find locally.

Or try a trek remedy. I'm not a big trek fan, but you can use it as a proof of concept. Slack STA, and basically a 4-bar. See if it has that pop you're looking for. Theres a lot of things I dont like about the trek, and I wouldnt buy one, but it might help to sort some variables.

I've always liked how fun single pivot bikes were to ride, but in general, historically they've pedaled poorly. I rode mini link bikes for quite some time, the trade off in playfulness was worth having a bike that pedaled better... but these days basically everyone has nailed the linkages and most companies figured out how to make them pedal well. Its hard to explain just how it feels, but the VPP and DW link bikes just dont pop.
 

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Glad that then there's at least you with your ultimate facts and no opinions :rolleyes:

I ditched my slack STA bikes and ill never look back. Theres a lot of people with strong opinions on them trying to pass off their opinion as fact. For many, maybe most, the steep STA's are incredible... but 77 degrees is getting pretty nuts. I think 75 degrees is pretty damn steep, probably as much as id want to go forward.............................MY OPINION< WORTH AS MUCH AS YOU PAY FOR IT.
 

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That whole thing was my opinion. :lol:

I keep reading people talking about new Geo being a cause of unfixable pain and causing all these problems that most people never experience.

Just saying, steep sta's idn't get hugely popular in a few short years by making shitty bikes that no one likes. Not everyone will love it, but it's not a flawed design fundamentally. It works for most, not all, but most. I think the op can split the difference and find something that does both things he wants.
 

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Keep on Rockin...
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Maybe we should weigh in on what is a "steep" STA for a FS bike.

I'm going out on a limb and saying > 75 degrees is steep. Probably too steep for every day trail riding.
 

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Is 77° on a 140mm travel bike steep? Maybe. FS bikes sag around 30% in the rear and near 0% in the front while seated, the only time STA matters. So now that STA is maybe 75°. On many FS bikes, the higher the saddle the slacker the real STA is. For more rear travel the STA needs to be steeper to compensate. These STAs are not really comparable between brands without trying them in person. Demo bikes are normally setup hastily and will not give a true picture of how the bike will be to live with. For/aft/height of the saddle, stem, spacers, bar width/rise/sweep, never mind suspension tuning.
 
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