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help me out, why so much more?
Your dealer pays the exact same price that Competitve Cyclist pays. Assuming they are taking a similar margin the retail price should come out close.

$2395 U.S. = $2770 Can.

Obviously shipping is a little higher. Is the Canadian Government taking that big of a chunk?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i wish i knew...my 2004 Id frame was ticketed at 3000.00 CAD and the 2005 Id he has in stock is at 3099.00 CAD. Based on the Id list price, this is about a 30% markup (prorating the exchange as well) putting the Epiphany in the 3600.00 CAD range. I haven't been at the shop for a few weeks and do not know if he has any in stock, but am curious to find out...his website claims that the 2006 Ellsworth line is "coming soon"

For comparison he has a 2005 Intense 5.5 for 2700.00 CAD and a Turner 6 pack for about $2750.00 CAD...more examples on his web site
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
just a quick follow-up...spoke with a few people here, and transportation would be a bit more, brokerage fees are a little more as well (not a big hit,, depends on how they frames are shipped). I'm told that with free trade, duty is not a factor, especially at the high end. The government here is exploring putting a duty on imported bikes at the request of Canadian manufacturers, but this is yet to happen

its not just frames, i was looking to upgrade my fork to a Fox 36 and it was ticketed at 1600.00 CAD, (the 40 is at $3000.00)...

welcome to Canada, eh?
 

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I don't do PC
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Why are they so expensive??

$2395 with a Float R shock, you can get a 5 Spot for $500 less with a DHX air. I won't even go into the warranty/CS differences.
 

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First let me say that I think the 5 Spot is a great bike, but there are some valuable(my opinion) differences in the Epiphany

Epiphany vs. 5 Spot
5.7 lbs(they have actually been coming in under that) vs.6.6 lbs(weighed at local shop)
How much is .9 lbs worth????

Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
Sealed bearings vs. bushings
Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar

If its just about price, then why is a 5Spot $900 more than a Kona?
Why is a Mercedes thousands more than a BMW?
 

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pecusick said:
First let me say that I think the 5 Spot is a great bike, but there are some valuable(my opinion) differences in the Epiphany

Epiphany vs. 5 Spot
5.7 lbs(they have actually been coming in under that) vs.6.6 lbs(weighed at local shop)
How much is .9 lbs worth????

Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
Sealed bearings vs. bushings
Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar

If its just about price, then why is a 5Spot $900 more than a Kona?
Why is a Mercedes thousands more than a BMW?
A couple corrections:
2006 Five Spots will be anodized.
Rockers are machined (not stamped) aluminum.
 

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We get raped on all nice bikes in Canada, not just Ellsworth. When I had my Joker, the msrp was 1599 in the states and 2200+ north of the border. Taxes, brokerage fees, and mark ups hike the price. Bikes are even more expensive in Europe and Australia than Canada, so it could be worse I guess.
 

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pecusick said:
Anodized frame vs. Powder Coat
Laser etched graphics vs. Decals
Machined magnesium rockers vs. stamped? aluminum
Sealed bearings vs. bushings
Patented 4 bar suspension design vs. faux bar
Uh, stamped rockers? You've got to be kidding me. Are you taking crazy pills or something?

How about them bushings with grease ports, their rigidity, longer usefull lifetime due to purging of contaiminants, and easy servicing. This is one of the biggest reasons I got the turner, so thanks for justifying it.

Can you purge the grease out of your bearings and fill them with new grease without taking the bike apart?

And annodization is not some sort of trump card. There are different types of powdercoats, from baked on "plastics" to hard coatings that are durable. I've owned both kinds and know the difference. I've also had annodized products that wore fairly easily. It's definitely not something to try and proclaim as "better".

This is the difference between turner and ellsworth.

Dave Turner does not blatently misrepresent other bike manufacturers. He and his company simply stay out of it.

You on the other hand, are so concerned about trying to get an "edge" on everybody else that you are more inclined to try and "bend" the truth when no one is looking, and I'm not referring to the frame.
 

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Jayem said:
Uh, stamped rockers? You've got to be kidding me. Are you taking crazy pills or something?

How about them bushings with grease ports, their rigidity, longer usefull lifetime due to purging of contaiminants, and easy servicing. This is one of the biggest reasons I got the turner, so thanks for justifying it.

Can you purge the grease out of your bearings and fill them with new grease without taking the bike apart?

And annodization is not some sort of trump card. There are different types of powdercoats, from baked on "plastics" to hard coatings that are durable. I've owned both kinds and know the difference. I've also had annodized products that wore fairly easily. It's definitely not something to try and proclaim as "better".

This is the difference between turner and ellsworth.

Dave Turner does not blatently misrepresent other bike manufacturers. He and his company simply stay out of it.

You on the other hand, are so concerned about trying to get an "edge" on everybody else that you are more inclined to try and "bend" the truth when no one is looking, and I'm not referring to the frame.
I think he put the question mark behind the "stamped" in stamped rockers because he wasn't proclaining it to be a fact. They kinda look stamped because of the lack of tool marks commonly seen on CNC'ed parts.

Turner has a different idea on the bearing vs. bushing thing...most high end bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons. Turner has his reasons. Just because Ellsworth and most other bike makers disagree with DT doesn't mean the truth is being bent. Ellsworth thinks it is a selling point. BTW, Aren't 2006 Turners going to be Anoed?

I don't see any bending of the truth. If I walked into a dealer looking at both, I would want to know the differences and maybe Mag rockers, bearings, etc. would be important. Maybe decals I can peal off would be important. Just because a manufacturer states the differences as being positives doesn't imply dishonesty.

Now if Ellsworth had pushed a particular suspension design for years, saying it was the only way to design a bike, then suddenly changed his mind to stop paying royalties...then I might feel like the truth had been bent. I think Ellsworth has remained true to their ideas and it is not wrong to "sell" them.
 

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Doubleoh9 said:
I think he put the question mark behind the "stamped" in stamped rockers because he wasn't proclaining it to be a fact. They kinda look stamped because of the lack of tool marks commonly seen on CNC'ed parts.
Are you sure you know what "stamped" pieces look like? Are you sure you know what "CNCed" peices look like? You can polish a CNC piece, and you can stamp on texture if you like. IMO, the pecusick guy would have to be a moron to think that the rockers were "stamped". He's in the industry and he should know better. There's so many ways to manufactuer parts, high strength single crystal cast alloys, forged and then machined, etc. The straight edges of the turner rockers are usually giveaways that they are CNCed, but it doesn't always mean that a certain part is CNCed from an entire block. What manufacturer uses stamped linkage plates? I don't know of any quality manufacturers that do, and it seemed a pretty deliberate peice of misinformation. Yes, there was a question mark, but he still should have known better.

Turner has a different idea on the bearing vs. bushing thing...most high end bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons. Turner has his reasons.
Name one reason that the bearings are better than zerk bushings? The pivots in suspension are over-leveraged, so it's not about friction. The pivots in suspension need lateral rigidity, and while "enduro" or "max" type bearings are better than skateboard bearings, they've got a long way to go to even match up to an angular contact bearing or needle bearing, much less the rigidity of a bushing. There's also the issue of limited rotation, we're not talking about a wheel that spins millions of times on a ride, the suspension will only rotate a few degrees, causing bearings to pit, bearing races or recepticals to enlarge and deform, and ultimately shortening the lifespan due to the distribution of forces.

You're right that most bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons though, cause bearings are cheap.

The only other manufacturer that really addresses this IMO is Ventana, with their double-bearing designs that distribute the stress over an area basically 2x of regular bearings. This also addresses the lateral rigidity issue greatly.

BTW, Aren't 2006 Turners going to be Anoed?
Well smarty pants, you missed my point. Whoosh! The point was that neither annodizing or powder coat is "better", they both have advantages and disadvantages. I've seen good and bad examples of both.

So bearings/bushings aside, the point is that percusick should have known better, especially with the "rockers" and "anno" comments. That was just BS. The "sealed" bearings vs the properly named "zerk bushings" is also pretty funny.
 

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Jayem said:
Are you sure you know what "stamped" pieces look like? Are you sure you know what "CNCed" peices look like?
I know what CNC'ed parts look like...actually have made a few in my time...I was just trying to say that he put the question mark on it because he possible wasn't sure. Maybe he's not a machinist. I know plenty of people in the bike business that wouldn't know a ball nose end mill from a pencil. Also, I'm sure that not knowing the process used to fab a part does not imply that someone is a moron...it is unfair to call someone a moron who doesn't have your vast knowledge.

Jayem said:
Name one reason that the bearings are better than zerk bushings? The pivots in suspension are over-leveraged, so it's not about friction. The pivots in suspension need lateral rigidity, and while "enduro" or "max" type bearings are better than skateboard bearings, they've got a long way to go to even match up to an angular contact bearing or needle bearing, much less the rigidity of a bushing. There's also the issue of limited rotation, we're not talking about a wheel that spins millions of times on a ride, the suspension will only rotate a few degrees, causing bearings to pit, bearing races or recepticals to enlarge and deform, and ultimately shortening the lifespan due to the distribution of forces.
By your example of parts that only rotate a few degrees, I guess we should be using bushings in out Headsets.... Good leverage on them bars too. I'm glad you agree with DT, but can't different manufacturers disagree?

It is quite common in engineering to use bearings on leveraged components that don't experience multiple rotations. Generally, one can design a robust system with no lash using bearings. My last bike, a Specialized FSR with the cheapest bearings man can buy lasted thousands of miles in all weather with these inferior bearings.

This doesn't have to become a fight over different technology, Turner likes bushings (looks like you do too) and Ells and others like bearings. If Ells sells bearings as an advantage, he and his should be able to point out that they consider it an advantage. Simple, not dishonest. You strongly believe bushings are better and percusick thinks bearing are...so why is it that he's the one that is dishonest?

Jayem said:
You're right that most bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons though, cause bearings are cheap.
Last time I checked, quality bearings were a bit more expensive than bushings...

Jayem said:
The only other manufacturer that really addresses this IMO is Ventana, with their double-bearing designs that distribute the stress over an area basically 2x of regular bearings. This also addresses the lateral rigidity issue greatly.
That is not the only way to address lateral rigidity. I could design a different rocker that had single bearings at each pivot that could be just as rigid (or more). The point is that there are many differing ideas when it comes to engineering a solution to a problem...you may think that yours is better while another engineer thinks he has the solution. Each side can have valid arguments but rarely is it as definitive as you try and make it seem...Not all manufacturers are after the bottom line and if bushings were the best they would have them on their bike in a second. Ventana is a perfect example of this. Ventana really cares about bikes, but even Ventana has moved away from bushings. Great bike makers can disagree.

Jayem said:
Well smarty pants, you missed my point. Whoosh! The point was that neither annodizing or powder coat is "better", they both have advantages and disadvantages. I've seen good and bad examples of both.
Actually, I didn't miss your point, but thanks for acting like a 12 year old...those were good times. My point was that Ells thinks it is a selling point and it appears that DT may think so too (as of 2006.) I never said ano was better.

Jayem said:
So bearings/bushings aside, the point is that percusick should have known better, especially with the "rockers" and "anno" comments. That was just BS. The "sealed" bearings vs the properly named "zerk bushings" is also pretty funny.
I think percusick was making a sales pitch for the Ells and he and Ells thinks that these features set them above the competition. You find me one manufacturer that doesn't sell their ideas. Heck, look at your buddy DT. He sells his bushings as being better, he is selling this new TNT thing as beign just as good or better...I expect him to do this. I mean, he is in the business of selling bikes and he better believe he's got the better mouse trap.

Differences in design don't imply dishonesty. You jumped on percusick for a believing that his product is superior for the reasons he spelled out...then you try to make it seem like the Ellsworth philosophy is all about dishonesty. That's just not fair. If you were chapped about the Kona comment, just say it...
 

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Turning this into political thread!

You Canadians have to pay more for the simple fact that you don't have to live in the country whose president is...well you know his name! And you get free health care too, right? I pay ~ 150/mo for mine just in case i bust my collarbone riding :eek: , soo actually on an annual basis, your Ellss is a deal!

:rolleyes:
 

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Biker75 said:
You Canadians have to pay more for the simple fact that you don't have to live in the country whose president is...well you know his name! And you get free health care too, right? I pay ~ 150/mo for mine just in case i bust my collarbone riding :eek: , soo actually on an annual basis, your Ellss is a deal!

:rolleyes:
He's paying 15% sales tax and god knows what in income tax and you think his health care is free?
 

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I live in Alberta, Canada and pay 7% tax. There is no PST in Alberta. Yeah, we have high taxes, so health care is not really free up here. On the other hand, I have had two knee surgeries and would have had to pay around twenty thousand dollars up front, not including physiotherapy. I would not be able to afford to get the surgeries on a private system. This is when high taxes come into play.

From what I have learned, a good health insurance plan in the states is not exactly cheap either. I have a friend working in Florida who is paying at least $200.00 a month for general health coverage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
15% sales tax in Ontario, 50% Income Tax, health care surcharge for those making a bit more than average...its like having an alligator in your wallet

So here's my problem...i'm in Toronto, want a 2006 Epiphany and have 3 options...buy the frame in the U.S at about 2800 CAD, pay 15% tax, shipping and duty (unless i find a duty free lbs) and then still buy the components and have the bike built in Canada...i might save around $1000 CAD, but then have the hassles and potential warranty adjustment problems...or buy the complete bike in the U.S. for about 5400.00 CAD + 810 CAD (tax) = 6210.00 CAD + transportation & Duty. (probably the best option)

Or i go to my local Ellsworth Dealer (the only dealer within 1500 miles), pay 3500.00 CAD for the frame, 1500.00 CAD for a nice fork (Fox 36), 3000.00+ for the build kit (XTR, Avid's, Chris King, Mavic tubless, Easton, Selle Italia, etc...can go downmarket for about 2200.00 (XT, Hayes,etc))...the the complete bike will be about 8000.00 CAD + 1200.00 CAD (tax) and will net out at 9200.00 CAD...thats over 7000.00 USD, more if i want to get fancy

That's not an Epiphany, it's an effen Revelation...

the only other bike that i've seen that comes close up here is the new Scott at 10,000.00 CAD and its a Specialized knock off...
 

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Doubleoh9 said:
Last time I checked, quality bearings were a bit more expensive than bushings...
Yes, the kind that are not used in mountain bikes for the most part.
 
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