Jayem said:
Are you sure you know what "stamped" pieces look like? Are you sure you know what "CNCed" peices look like?
I know what CNC'ed parts look like...actually have made a few in my time...I was just trying to say that he put the question mark on it because he possible wasn't sure. Maybe he's not a machinist. I know plenty of people in the bike business that wouldn't know a ball nose end mill from a pencil. Also, I'm sure that not knowing the process used to fab a part does not imply that someone is a moron...it is unfair to call someone a moron who doesn't have your vast knowledge.
Jayem said:
Name one reason that the bearings are better than zerk bushings? The pivots in suspension are over-leveraged, so it's not about friction. The pivots in suspension need lateral rigidity, and while "enduro" or "max" type bearings are better than skateboard bearings, they've got a long way to go to even match up to an angular contact bearing or needle bearing, much less the rigidity of a bushing. There's also the issue of limited rotation, we're not talking about a wheel that spins millions of times on a ride, the suspension will only rotate a few degrees, causing bearings to pit, bearing races or recepticals to enlarge and deform, and ultimately shortening the lifespan due to the distribution of forces.
By your example of parts that only rotate a few degrees, I guess we should be using bushings in out Headsets.... Good leverage on them bars too. I'm glad you agree with DT, but can't different manufacturers disagree?
It is quite common in engineering to use bearings on leveraged components that don't experience multiple rotations. Generally, one can design a robust system with no lash using bearings. My last bike, a Specialized FSR with the cheapest bearings man can buy lasted thousands of miles in all weather with these inferior bearings.
This doesn't have to become a fight over different technology, Turner likes bushings (looks like you do too) and Ells and others like bearings. If Ells sells bearings as an advantage, he and his should be able to point out that they consider it an advantage. Simple, not dishonest. You strongly believe bushings are better and percusick thinks bearing are...so why is it that he's the one that is dishonest?
Jayem said:
You're right that most bikes come with bearings for justifiable reasons though, cause bearings are cheap.
Last time I checked, quality bearings were a bit more expensive than bushings...
Jayem said:
The only other manufacturer that really addresses this IMO is Ventana, with their double-bearing designs that distribute the stress over an area basically 2x of regular bearings. This also addresses the lateral rigidity issue greatly.
That is not the only way to address lateral rigidity. I could design a different rocker that had single bearings at each pivot that could be just as rigid (or more). The point is that there are many differing ideas when it comes to engineering a solution to a problem...you may think that yours is better while another engineer thinks he has the solution. Each side can have valid arguments but rarely is it as definitive as you try and make it seem...Not all manufacturers are after the bottom line and if bushings were the best they would have them on their bike in a second. Ventana is a perfect example of this. Ventana really cares about bikes, but even Ventana has moved away from bushings. Great bike makers can disagree.
Jayem said:
Well smarty pants, you missed my point. Whoosh! The point was that neither annodizing or powder coat is "better", they both have advantages and disadvantages. I've seen good and bad examples of both.
Actually, I didn't miss your point, but thanks for acting like a 12 year old...those were good times. My point was that Ells thinks it is a selling point and it appears that DT may think so too (as of 2006.) I never said ano was better.
Jayem said:
So bearings/bushings aside, the point is that percusick should have known better, especially with the "rockers" and "anno" comments. That was just BS. The "sealed" bearings vs the properly named "zerk bushings" is also pretty funny.
I think percusick was making a sales pitch for the Ells and he and Ells thinks that these features set them above the competition. You find me one manufacturer that doesn't sell their ideas. Heck, look at your buddy DT. He sells his bushings as being better, he is selling this new TNT thing as beign just as good or better...I expect him to do this. I mean, he is in the business of selling bikes and he better believe he's got the better mouse trap.
Differences in design don't imply dishonesty. You jumped on percusick for a believing that his product is superior for the reasons he spelled out...then you try to make it seem like the Ellsworth philosophy is all about dishonesty. That's just not fair. If you were chapped about the Kona comment, just say it...
