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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just sold my 05' Z1 FR 1 150 fork and replaced it with a 2004 Z150sl - I miss my Z1 FR . The coil fork was soft initially but had a firm mid-stroke from the coil springs. The SL sinks deep in its midsroke - more air just gets it too stiff. I checked out Marzocchi's dual coil offerings and the 66 is more fork than my Heckler needs. The only thing "M" has too offer is the 07' Z1rc2 (coil / air). I rode a 2005 AM1 (air / coil) and felt it had no mid stroke either. Think the 07' Z1rc2 is better ? How about a fox 36 ? Thanx
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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I think the coil/air hybrids work very well, with no real drawbacks. If you think the mid-stroke travel isn't there and that it kind of "blows through" the travel, stay away from fox. You can't adjust the progressiveness really on the vanilla model (you can adjust bottom out, but not easily nor with anything inbetween 3 settings), and with the talas you have a very linear fork that blows through the travel.

Don't go by marzocchis air pressure numbers, SET THE SAG first. Then raise the oil level as necessary to prevent bottomout. Lastly, forks WILL dive when you brake, if they aren't diving, they WILL NOT respond to bumps that are within the frequency range of that fork dive, so it's a tradeoff and you either have it working all the time and blowing through the travel during braking a bit, or you have a harsh fork that is overdamped in compression. The only way around this is a linkage fork or an "inertia valve", but even those "inertial valves" will have a very small amount of time as they transition from the closed to "open" position, which can create harshness and degraded suspension performance.

I had the AM1 and now I have the 66 Light ETA (RC2 damper). I like the 66 better because it has a better damping system. I like the fact that the fork doesn't soley rely on an air spring, but it's still ultra-adjustable and it doesn't "leak down" much, if at all, during long periods of time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The issue isn't damper related its a matter of the air vs. coil characteristics. If I make a run with a long steep descent (lots of weight on the front end) the air forks sits deep in its travel. My coil fork was always soft into its sag but wouldn't go deep into the travel under weight of a descent. When I campare my DHX coil to a DHX air I get similar results. The coil stays higher in its travel. Does that make sense ?
 

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carpe mañana
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keen said:
The issue isn't damper related its a matter of the air vs. coil characteristics. If I make a run with a long steep descent (lots of weight on the front end) the air forks sits deep in its travel. My coil fork was always soft into its sag but wouldn't go deep into the travel under weight of a descent. When I campare my DHX coil to a DHX air I get similar results. The coil stays higher in its travel. Does that make sense ?
It does make sense. Air springs have that unfortunate characteristic to them, the flat part of the spring rate curve which happens in the mid stroke, which is nearly flat.

TNC has reported that his best luck with the setup of the Z150SL was running the smallest allowed oil volume to maximize the air chamber volume. He ought to be able to shed more light on the setup for ya.

_MK
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
MK_ said:
It does make sense. Air springs have that unfortunate characteristic to them, the flat part of the spring rate curve which happens in the mid stroke, which is nearly flat.

TNC has reported that his best luck with the setup of the Z150SL was running the smallest allowed oil volume to maximize the air chamber volume. He ought to be able to shed more light on the setup for ya.

_MK
-the flat part of the spring rate curve which happens in the mid stroke-

That is my point. I emailed TNC and he ended up converting his Z150sl's into hybrids (coil from a Z1 FR). I am looking @ the 07' Z1 FR hybrid - I just hope the coil is dominant. I did ride an 05' AM1 and thought it lacked the midstroke spring - hope the 07' Z1 is different ???
 

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carpe mañana
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keen said:
-the flat part of the spring rate curve which happens in the mid stroke-

That is my point. I emailed TNC and he ended up converting his Z150sl's into hybrids (coil from a Z1 FR). I am looking @ the 07' Z1 FR hybrid - I just hope the coil is dominant. I did ride an 05' AM1 and thought it lacked the midstroke spring - hope the 07' Z1 is different ???
It depends on how much you weight. If you use a lot of air preload on the hybrid and subsequently the air is the dominant spring force, it will ride very much like an air fork. If you're not a heavyweight, it should ride good.

_MK
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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keen said:
The issue isn't damper related its a matter of the air vs. coil characteristics. If I make a run with a long steep descent (lots of weight on the front end) the air forks sits deep in its travel. My coil fork was always soft into its sag but wouldn't go deep into the travel under weight of a descent. When I campare my DHX coil to a DHX air I get similar results. The coil stays higher in its travel. Does that make sense ?
No, it doesn't make sense because the AM1, Z1 and 66 (except the sl model) ARE coil forks.

Also consider that these are extremely high volume and low PSI air adjustments, NOT like the positive spring within your Z150 or other air shocks/forks. I put about 8psi in my 66...actually it's so low that it doesn't register so I just count the number of pumps and set the sag. I'm not light at 190lbs either. In other words, it's not relying on the air spring to such an extent that the air spring becomes the defining characteristic. Such is obviously not the case with "all air" shocks and forks.

The Z150SL is an air fork, so it would most definitely suffer from what you are describing.

Again, if you're complaining about blowing through travel, stay away from the fox stuff, there's a good chance you'd think it works worse because it does the same thing, but to a higher extent with the talas model especially.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Jayem said:
No, it doesn't make sense because the AM1, Z1 and 66 (except the sl model) ARE coil forks.

The AM1, 07' Z1, 06' 66 light are hybrids - one leg coil the other leg air. The pressure range for these forks is up to 60 psi. You mentioned 8 psi for your 66 are you reffering to an air assisted dual coil fork ?
 

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noMAD man
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Semantics seems to be coming into play here. By what I'd call traditional Marz fork language, I'd say any Marz fork that has 1 coil and 1 leg supported solely by air is a hybrid fork...IMO...LOL! Even in their manual they show the legs separately as air and coil on models like the 66 Light. Now I realize that every single spring fork, normally referred to as a coil fork(example: Fox Van 36), actually has air in both legs as an additional medium, but Marz "seems" to be a 2-spring setup for a true coil fork.

Keen and I have been talking on the PMs about his Z150SL. Having known keen for awhile on the forums here, I think he's a more aggressive rider than me. If I couldn't get satisfaction out of the Z150SL for my style of riding without turning it into a coil/air hybrid, I don't think he'll be able to either. The Z150SL for me had too much dive, and you always had to sacrifice travel for either too much sag to achieve full compression or not get full compression to achieve proper ride height. Oddly I don't find this to be the case for the 66SL, and that may have something to do with greater air volume and a better damper in the 66SL.
 

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Elitest thrill junkie
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keen said:
Jayem said:
No, it doesn't make sense because the AM1, Z1 and 66 (except the sl model) ARE coil forks.

The AM1, 07' Z1, 06' 66 light are hybrids - one leg coil the other leg air. The pressure range for these forks is up to 60 psi. You mentioned 8 psi for your 66 are you reffering to an air assisted dual coil fork ?
marzocchi's numbers are way off for the pressure. If you try and put 40psi in there, it's rock hard and doesn't sag at all.

For the AM1 the most I was ever putting in there was about 18, but usually less than that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I called Marzocchi today, un-related steer tube job, I asked them if it was possible to convert the hybrid 07' Z1 into a dual coil. I assumed this would require mixing and matching from different models / years - Wouldn't it figure that they have a complete kit in the works. I asked why the kit was being produced and was told there was a demand for the kit. I'll assume that Z1 owners were not happy w/ the hybrids performance.
 

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R.I.P. DogFriend
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Having come from a platform fork to the 2006 All Mountain 1 130-150, I was initially uncomfortable with the diving under front brake pressure that I suddenly felt.

I weigh 270lbs and anything more than 45psi is way too stiff for my taste, more like 35psi for me which gives an inch or maybe a tad more sag when seated in a normal riding position. I have compensated for the dive by shifting my weight back a little further than usual when braking, but the truth is that the fork sucks up all I'm able to give it (admittedly not that much... :D) without a whimper.

Nice to hear about the dual coil kit as an option. Please report back here if you get it. Choice is good.

Regards,
Jeff
 
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