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Wandervans
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well it was an intresting time at the table on saturday, we seemed to get zero complaints from hikers and runners about bad mountain bikers. But had a couple comments from mountain bikers about other mountain bikers. I even heard a story of a downhill biker elbowing another biker because he assumed he had the right of way. Many comments from bikers about the riders in club jerseys being disrespectfull too.

I was pleasently reassured that the mountain biker vs hiker conflict seems minimal to non-existant.

Chris
 

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mtbr platinum member
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I was climbing Hulls last week, when a rider came bombing down the trail and locked up the brakes hard when he finally saw us. He mumbled, "Most people go down this trail."

Oh, that's funny. The last time that I checked, Hulls Gulch wasn't a closed-course downhill. There are many different users on our trails.

Please don't bomb full-speed into blind corners! Hoping that there aren't other trail users around the next corner is not a great strategy for keeping and expanding our trail network in the Foothills.
 

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TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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biker-biker conflicts on the rise

I have to agree - there seem to be more biker-biker conflicts that others. Especially this time of year. It's a disturbing trend and one I guess is due to poor biker education and a false sense of entitlement and ego that comes with owning a fast and stable steed.

I vote for making Hulls uphill only on bike but that may be a bandaid. My personal solution is to not ride Hulls during the summer but that's just another bandaid too.
 

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Well, I didn't get the same impression. I talked to more hikers and runners than mountain bikers (this after I moved the chairs to the parking lot to get more exposure). Most every one of them recoutned stories of rude mountain bikers to me. They were all very impressed that we were out there trying to help. The main reason why we moved down to the lot was that it was very hard to get mountain bikers to stop to talk (even when I'd stand up and ask them to chat as they flew by). The ones we did talk to in the lot were also happy that we were out there.

My main impression was that even if we didn't touch base with a lot of mtn bikers, the exposure to the the hiker/runner crowd was a very good thing from a PR perspective. They saw that we're trying to be proactive about the etiquette problem and that is a good thing.

Chris, just because you think the biker vs. hiker conflict is "minimal to non existent" doesn't mean that's the way it is. Please try to not base your judgement on just your own personal experience, especially since you were out there duing the rainiest part of the day.

We took 25-30 pamphlets to give to the Tamarack Team - Jody's going to try and touch base with them this week.

I'd like to see more effort to keep up the education of mtn bikers. We can't end it here and call it good. I think a letter writing campaign would be a very good thing and I'll happily volunteer to write one myself.

matt

smilycook said:
Well it was an intresting time at the table on saturday, we seemed to get zero complaints from hikers and runners about bad mountain bikers. But had a couple comments from mountain bikers about other mountain bikers. I even heard a story of a downhill biker elbowing another biker because he assumed he had the right of way. Many comments from bikers about the riders in club jerseys being disrespectfull too.

I was pleasently reassured that the mountain biker vs hiker conflict seems minimal to non-existant.

Chris
 

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Barneys Unite!
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748 Posts
That is certainly different from what Adam and I heard . . .

while we were there but, as you mentioned, the weather wasn't the best during our time slot. The vast majority of hikers/joggers we talked to had little to no complaint with bikers - the most frequent complaint we heard from hikers/joggers was about dogs. As Chris mentioned, we heard quite a few biker/biker conflict stories.

I do think that SWIMBA's presence was very positive PR for the MTB community, and that seemed to be reflected by the hikers/joggers with whom we spoke. Most seemed to think it was cool that we were outh there trying to educate folks.

By the way, kudos to Adam for his presentation skills!

Terry (Yes, I change my user name - tired of the confusion).
 

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Wandervans
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Everyone has stories

about a bad encounter with bikers, but bad encounters is not the norm. It is a multi-use trail and some conflict is too be expect. Hikers will span the spectrum of being tolerant to being flat out combative(hikers elbowing bikers off the trail).

boisematt said:
Chris, just because you think the biker vs. hiker conflict is "minimal to non existent" doesn't mean that's the way it is. Please try to not base your judgement on just your own personal experience, especially since you were out there duing the rainiest part of the day.
I base a lot of my conclusions on the feedback recieved from the land managers, and from that feedback believe that conflict is minimal, but does exist.

Here is a very telling article on the perception and reality of conflict:
http://www.imba.com/resources/science/cessford.html

I definatly agree that education is very important and should be kept very positive. To get to more riders it would be very helpful if every new bike sold in town had an etiqutte brochere and etiquette was stressed by the shops after the bike purchase. We have plenty of etiquette material we just need someone to volenteer to lead the charge. Who is up to the challenge?

Talking to bike clubs is important, but it would also be good to have another etiquette table setup during midweek over the springtime.

Chris
 

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aaarrrggghh!
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Couldn't help myself....

smilycook said:
Well it was an intresting time at the table on saturday, we seemed to get zero complaints from hikers and runners about bad mountain bikers. But had a couple comments from mountain bikers about other mountain bikers. I even heard a story of a downhill biker elbowing another biker because he assumed he had the right of way. Many comments from bikers about the riders in club jerseys being disrespectfull too.

I was pleasently reassured that the mountain biker vs hiker conflict seems minimal to non-existant.

Chris
As I read this thread from Chris I knew I had to respond. First off, thanks to those of you who volunteered your time this weekend. What a great way to help out with user conflicts. Hopefully I won't be working all weekend soon and can pitch in. Secondly, all the bashing Wyld Willy has recieved from angry THRIVE readers seems rediculous. When Chris says that he heard more complaints about the club riders from other riders says alot about the attitude here in the city of trees. I'm not calling anyone here out, in fact I don't think anyone here is who Brad was referring to in his "Manifesto". But those who wrote into THRIVE as a response to the article mention that Brad is basically being ignorant and that there is no problem with these "elite" club riders. Obviously SOME have bad attitudes and that was all Brad was pointing out.

For those of you who visit spudhucksters.com you all know Brad doesn't walk around with a chip on his shoulder, that so called Manifesto was a dated rant after he had yet another rider with an elitest bad attitude give him sh!t about his bike and riding gear. AND I don't think that Hulls should be uphill only. That would be a travesty. When I decend that trail I go extra slow at the blind areas and basically enjoy the flow of the trail at pretty much coasting speed. You can find more of the jumps that way. Education is the key and you guys are on target with this info table, Thanks again.

Ian
 

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Ivan the Terrible said:
AND I don't think that Hulls should be uphill only. That would be a travesty. When I decend that trail I go extra slow at the blind areas and basically enjoy the flow of the trail at pretty much coasting speed.
Agreed.

I'm not of the opinion that Hulls should be a one-way only trail. I make dang sure that I can see clear trail ahead before I 'open it up'. Long-straights and inside corners (corners that you can see around; not blind corners) are good examples of what I'm talking about. Walking pace around blind corners is a great rule of thumb.

Lifting your eyes off of your front tire and looking down the trail will also make you a far better rider.
 

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TRAIL KUBUKI CORNDOGGER
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My bad - sorry

To be honest I don't think Hulls should be a one-way trail either - I enjoy going down it as much as I enjoy going up it. I think my statement was a reaction to the conditions (and RacerX40's encounter last week) and I apologize. I raised a solution and got some responses. Thanks.

I don't know what the solution is to biker-biker conflicts. I do know that elitist attitudes don't do much to enhance the foothills riding experience though.
 

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sharing the love
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Bad Attitudes

Ivan the Terrible said:
Obviously SOME have bad attitudes and that was all Brad was pointing out.
I totally agree that Boise has a bit of an attitude problem. Maybe it's just me but it seems that all of these "elite" cyclist around here have the holier than though attitude (XC and Road). If you have a team jersey here, you don't need to follow trail etiquette because you're "training". But, I haven't actually got comments (like Brad has) from other riders about my 32lb trail bike with 2.4" tires, flat pedals, baggy clothes, and Vans skate shoes. Most of the attitude that I've seen has to do with riders thinking they are better than they really are. A lot of people here think they are world class riders. Anyone with a decent set of legs and lungs can ride anything here. I ride my bike with flat pedals to the top of the ridge. (I think clipless pedals feel like shackles.) It's actually pretty funny to pass someone going uphill who is riding a 20lb hardtail with bar ends, clipless pedals, and a lot of lycra. It seems Boise is divided into "clicks" of bikers who hang together. I work with a guy who moved here last fall and went for a road ride with a group that shall remain un-named. The next day he was like "what's up with riders around here". Aren't we all out there to have fun on two wheels (occasionally one wheel). Do we need to feel superior to others because we can climb Hard Guy in 3715.56 seconds? Not impressed.
 

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More fiber?

zebdi said:
I totally agree that Boise has a bit of an attitude problem. Maybe it's just me but it seems that all of these "elite" cyclist around here have the holier than though attitude (XC and Road). If you have a team jersey here, you don't need to follow trail etiquette because you're "training".

Zebi,

It isn't that the jersey owners lack trail etiquette, they just eat too much meat and dairy products and not enough fiber. Rather than having trail etiguette days, SWIMBA should sponsor a "take a big poop day!" The event could kick off with German sausage and kraut washed down with a glass of Metimucil and followed with a Guinness. The follow up ride would be one to remember! :(

Sausage, kraut, Guinness and fiber - who could be cranky after that?
 

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Unicycles are for clowns
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Bad Apples

I am on a local club, and I agree that some there are some bike snobs here in town. Rather than use their experience and pass that along to new riders, they prefer to look down on you, there are some good apples though. I respect anyone who goes out for a ride, it's better than sitting on your butt gettin fat like the rest of the country. There are no medals, prizes, or history making stuff for being the fastest rider up or down hulls gulch or any other trails. I ride/race XC/Road, but guys/gals out there with 30 pound freeride bikes, baggies, and flats are still cool to me cause they can do sick suff, that I only wish I could do with my lycra clad chicken legs.
 

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Every Ride A Gift
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Attitudes

I was just thinking about this last night as I did my ride up Kestrel, Sidewinder, etc. Why is it that so many MTB'ers look so damn grouchy while out on the trail? Isn't this supposed to be a fun activity? I understand when you're climbing that it can be a bit intense and you may not feel much like smiling or saying hello, but on flat stuff or descents why is it necessary for so many guys to have an attitude? I don't get it. It seems so much more enjoyable to be friendly to others I encounter on the trail.

And if you want to bomb down Hulls, doesn't it make sense to pick a time of day or week when there aren't likely to be very many people - either hikers or bikers going up? Basic consideration, IMHO.
 

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Tonight I hiked at Table Rock. On the way down I stopped to get a drink and looked back and saw a biker stopped. Knowing this I made sure to stay to the far right on the trail. I heard him coming down and was expecting for him to signal to me that he was coming up behind me and gonna pass me.

So did he?

Hell no.

Did his wife/GF/friend signal???

**** no.

And this ****er didn't even slow down (she sorta did). OK...yeah I know Table Rock is a pretty wide trail and there is room to pass safely even going a wee bit fast. As soon as he passed me I yelled out "make sure you signal!" to which he just looked over his shoulder and kept riding. I didn't know he had someone with him until she passed me a couple of seconds later.

Man did I get pissed. I wanted to sprint down to try to catch up with them in the parking lot to beat the crap outta 'em, but they zoomed down the trail and I lost sight of 'em.

And no these weren't club folks. Just regular folks out for a ride on a Thursday evening.

I am guessing that those two really meant no harm or ill will. But I do think they were probably ignorant of proper trail etiquette.

Nick
 

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sharing the love
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Reverse Discrimination

When I was riding up Table Rock once, I came across an older guy hiking with his wife. His wife looked like she was having a bit more of a difficult time with climbing than him. She moved over as I approached to allow me to pass (common courtesy). Her arrogant husband, however, looked over his shoulder to see me and then proceeded to stay right in the middle of the trail hiking up with his stupid little high tech walking sticks (who the ***k needs those on Table Rock). When I finally found room to pass, he just gave me a dirty look as I rode past. I must be scum for using my mechanical advantage to climb that hill while all he had were a couple hundred dollars worth of carbon fiber walking sticks with little suspension tips.:(
 

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Back of the pack fat guy
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signaling - two options

BelaySlave said:
Tonight I hiked at Table Rock. On the way down I stopped to get a drink and looked back and saw a biker stopped. Knowing this I made sure to stay to the far right on the trail. I heard him coming down and was expecting for him to signal to me that he was coming up behind me and gonna pass me.

So did he?

Hell no.

Did his wife/GF/friend signal???

**** no.

And this ****er didn't even slow down (she sorta did). OK...yeah I know Table Rock is a pretty wide trail and there is room to pass safely even going a wee bit fast. As soon as he passed me I yelled out "make sure you signal!" to which he just looked over his shoulder and kept riding. I didn't know he had someone with him until she passed me a couple of seconds later.

Man did I get pissed. I wanted to sprint down to try to catch up with them in the parking lot to beat the crap outta 'em, but they zoomed down the trail and I lost sight of 'em.

And no these weren't club folks. Just regular folks out for a ride on a Thursday evening.

I am guessing that those two really meant no harm or ill will. But I do think they were probably ignorant of proper trail etiquette.

Nick
Nick - There are two schools of thought on signaling. The first is yours - mountain bikers should always give out a shout when coming up behind somebody - like "on your left" or something similar. However, it's been my experience that all that does is scare the hell out of people, which usually causes them to jump left, INTO my path. Most folks don't know what "on your left" means - I've had more people MOVE left when I say that than move to their right. "I'm going to pass you on your left/right" takes a while to say, and also tends to surprise people and they freeze or freak out and jump in your path anyway.

The other school of thought is to just pass somebody without saying anything, but only if there's plenty of room to pass. It tends to cause less of a HOHA freak out and thus less chance of people jumping into your way. However, IF the trail is too narrow to pass, of course you have to say something. However, if the trail is like nearly every other "singletrack" here (3 - 5 feet wide), I've found it's better to pass quickly without saying anything.
 

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Earthpig said:
Nick - There are two schools of thought on signaling....
How about a third; the little handle bar bell? It seems like a good way to let people know you are there without confusing them with commands. I don't have one myself but when I ride with people who do, it seems to get a really good response.
 
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