[bloodyknee]

I was wondering how many points of engagment (POE) are considered standard on an XC wheelset? Along the same lines, at what level does too few become noticable on performance? Or the flip side, is there a number where more doesn't mean better?


thanks,
Jay

 

[Bikinfoolferlife]

Points of engagement simply translate into how much/little your cranks move before you start driving the rear wheel. Mostly this makes little difference, but if you're riding some technical trails where crank movement is limited and you want the most drive for the least movement of the cranks, a higher number of points of engagement can be a good thing. My Hugi 240s has 18 points of engagement, my Kings have 72, most hubs fall somewhere in this range. I really don't notice the difference most of the time. Shimano's current crop of XT/XTR has gone from 24 (I think) to 36. Lot of good information in this thread http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=4804897. How they do it counts, too. I like the DT and King ring drive type drive design; durable, better distributed load and serviceable; pawl designs am not so crazy about. YMMV.

 

[bloodyknee]

Thanks that is a good post.

 

[dan0]

I was wondering how many points of engagment (POE) are considered standard on an XC wheelset? Along the same lines, at what level does too few become noticable on performance? Or the flip side, is there a number where more doesn't mean better?

thanks,
Jay

I don't think there really is a standard , most commonly on pawl type hubs there are 2 pawls, they are starting to use 4 on xt so thats probably the new standard. the Kings don't use pawls they use rings which engage all at once. The higher end pawl hubs have 6 pawls , each with 3 teeth
I have to disagree with BFL about not noticing the difference , I can definitely feel the lag when using a hub with lower engagement.
You can have too many POE because at a certain point the teeth get too small and weak
Also the more POE the more drag (that buzzing noise is the teeth ratcheting)
If you're a larger/ stronger rider you will probably break the pawls on a 2 pawl system (there is a reason why people spend $300-$500 on hubs) you get better bearings, stronger materials and better engineering . The KIng and I9 hubs are tested to over 700 lbs of torque

 

[bloodyknee]

Doesn't seem to be after reading the post that Bikinfoolferlife has supplied. I need to go out on the DT Swiss and CK sites and take a look at mechanics of thier engagement vs. a pawl type engagement.

Seems like there could be a pawl/POE ratio that could be developed based on the rider's weight and the type of riding they do.

 

[dan0]

Doesn't seem to be after reading the post that Bikinfoolferlife has supplied. I need to go out on the DT Swiss and CK sites and take a look at mechanics of thier engagement vs. a pawl type engagement.

Seems like there could be a pawl/POE ratio that could be developed based on the rider's weight and the type of riding they do.

as with everything on bikes there is a reality check. If you want light weight you wont get the strength, if you want bomb proof, it wont be light
right now the 2 strongest hubs are CK & I9
Ive broken pawls on Mavic and Bontrager (dtswiss)

 

[Bikinfoolferlife]

You saying Kings aren't light??

 

[Jerk_Chicken]

Related to the topic is seeing in Europe people don't seem to care about engagement points. Hell, I was even looking at some hubs from Goldtec and other companies and nowhere to be found was the engagement type, let alone the points of engagement. People out here seem to care more about overall reliability than engagement points.

I guess Europeans are just pedaling more

 

[norcosam]

I have industry nines and hope pro 2's and there is a massive difference in the freehub pickup.I usually use the hopes as they are running mavic 823's and are easier fore tubeless tyres,and the i9's are running dt 5.1's .I do prefer the i9's when riding trails that require more technical riding and smaller tighter tracks.I have never had any problems with the i9's pawl system but i habe had a broken pawl spring in my hopes.

 

[petercarm]

For lots of XC racing, the speed comes from pedalling not from POE. There are other disciplines where it is much more important. Hope, for instance, do a Trials version of their Pro 2 hub with an asymmetric arrangement of pawls to give twice the points of engagement.

I'd put myself in the category of not knowing what I'm missing having never ridden anything with more POE. I'd love to think that having a King or an I9 would immediately unleash my full potential... but I have a sneaking suspicion I have limits unrelated to POE on my hub.

 

[dan0]

I think there are 2 advantages to higher POE
strength and quickness of engagement
if you have a 2 pawl system, there are only 2 teeth engaging at a time ( unless there are multiple teeth on each pawl) therefore less metal to metal contact = weaker
as far as the faster engagement I agree its mainly useful for trials type riding or slow technical sections, however I like the feel of instant engagement. It always bothers me to ride a bike with lesser POE and have that dead zone where you peddle and nothing engages at first. I know that you do get used to it and it becomes almost un noticeable after awhile but I also wonder if that lag doesn't contribute to broken pawls/ hubs

 

[dan0]

You saying Kings aren't light??

some are and some arent and the lightest weight ones are not as strong as the heavier
weight ones
My point was lightweight racing type parts by definition are not as strong as parts made for general or heavy duty type riding

 

[shiggy]

some are and some arent and the lightest weight ones are not as strong as the heavier
weight ones
My point was lightweight racing type parts by definition are not as strong as parts made for general or heavy duty type riding

All CK hubs are stronger than most pawl-type hubs on the market.

If you broke pawls on a Bonty hub it was not the high-end DT Swiss star ratchet design used in the 240, 340, 440 hubs and high end Bontys. The star ratchet is a near built proof setup.

That said, IME speed of engagement is more important than points of engagement. Even though the DT Swiss has "only" 18 clicks it engages very quickly. Feels great on the bike.

I also use the newer 36 click XT hubs and notice no difference on the trail compared to the older 18 click Shimanos.

You also need to remember than the ground speed of the bike and the gear ratio you are using affects how far you need to move the pedals before the hub engages.

 

[Bikinfoolferlife]

some are and some arent and the lightest weight ones are not as strong as the heavier
weight ones
My point was lightweight racing type parts by definition are not as strong as parts made for general or heavy duty type riding

The King drive internals are the same on their rear hubs, so not sure what you mean in that sense. Heavy does not necessarily mean stronger, either, there are some racing components that are just as strong as anything else. Design, materials and execution mean more than just weight. King is a good example of that.

 

[slowrider]

Avg around 35

I never though about it until I got a Chris King rear hub for Christmas and now I can never go back. I ride either Kings or Hadleys with 72 pt engagment and it has become MY standard.
I went out Sunday to demo the new Turners and they had WTB hubs, nice hubs but my first thought everytime I started pedaling after a DH was "what the hell is wrong with these hubs" because they took so long to start driving the bike again. So I reccomend you never try high engagement hubs or you will have to spend $400+ on a new hubset. Good news, Youll have them forever.

 

[dan0]

All CK hubs are stronger than most pawl-type hubs on the market.

If you broke pawls on a Bonty hub it was not the high-end DT Swiss star ratchet design used in the 240, 340, 440 hubs and high end Bontys. The star ratchet is a near built proof setup.

That said, IME speed of engagement is more important than points of engagement. Even though the DT Swiss has "only" 18 clicks it engages very quickly. Feels great on the bike.

I also use the newer 36 click XT hubs and notice no difference on the trail compared to the older 18 click Shimanos.

You also need to remember than the ground speed of the bike and the gear ratio you are using affects how far you need to move the pedals before the hub engages.

agreed,
the Bonty hubs I broke were the "swiss made" ones that come with the Rythym elite wheels, had them warrantied twice , once for the hub and once for the spokes pulling through the rim. at the time I purchased them they were the High end Bontrager rim for 29ers

 

[dan0]

The King drive internals are the same on their rear hubs, so not sure what you mean in that sense. Heavy does not necessarily mean stronger, either, there are some racing components that are just as strong as anything else. Design, materials and execution mean more than just weight. King is a good example of that.

Heavy does not necessarily mean stronger but more often than not it
is, there are exceptions to every rule. I agree that design and materials are important but if something is designed to be as light as possible for racing or xc use you dont expect it to be as strong as something designed for DH or Freeride , and , if you could design something strong enough for that type riding, And make it light enough for racing and xc why would you need more than one design?

I dont think were dissagreeing, Kings are great hubs, as are I9s