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Being able to do both methods, kinda handy.
If you can do things the 'right' way (ie - the way you do with flat pedals), even when you are on clipless, you don't need to rely on them and everything works better. If you can only jump/hop your bike if you're clipped in, you're lacking the most important parts of the skillset.

No one who can jump/hop on flats is going to have any problem doing it on clipless.
The reverse is not true.
 

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Disgruntled Peccary
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If you can do things the 'right' way (ie - the way you do with flat pedals), even when you are on clipless, you don't need to rely on them and everything works better. If you can only jump/hop your bike if you're clipped in, you're lacking the most important parts of the skillset.

No one who can jump/hop on flats is going to have any problem doing it on clipless.
The reverse is not true.
Agreed, but it's feeling quixotic.
 

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Who cares?
=s
It was an observation regarding the 'two methods' comment to the effect that one method covers all situations, while one is equipment specific.

No doubt true for some people — not for all.

Are you saying that ALL clip-in pedal riders are screwed up at jumping?

I simply don’t understand the platform pedal user’s disdain for clips.
Some clipped riders use proper technique and can jump great. You may be one of those.
Many clipped riders absolutely don't get it and just try to yank the bike up through the soles of their shoes. This method sucks.

I absolutely prefer clipless for trail riding myself, and even technical DH, but absolutely abhor them for pump/jump/park riding.
 

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Are you saying that ALL clip-in pedal riders are screwed up at jumping?
No but it's better to learn on flat pedals.

Your original question was what's wrong with lifting the bike up with your feet and really nothing unless you're relying on it. Lifting the bike with your pedals flats or clips is the easy part and can be a hindrance to learning how to actually hop or jump if you rely on it.
 

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Curious... what's wrong with lifting the bike with the feet? TIA
=sParty
Nothing wrong with it but if I didn't take my learning beyond I'd also have missed helpful skills and most, important more fun added to my riding.

About 10-12 years ago hanging with more jump, trials, and session stuff vs XC riding crowd built skills that really added to riding enjoyment and let me also move from a solid b group to head of b group and often eat dust of a group riders. I'm just expressing what might help others get more fun from it all.
 

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No doubt true for some people — not for all.

Basketball isn’t an appropriate anology because BB players don’t jump off or over things — the space between their feet and the ground doesn’t matter like it does in mountain biking. Only the height of their hands.

Are you saying that ALL clip-in pedal riders are screwed up at jumping? Are you saying that I can’t get the height that you can strictly because I clip in and you don’t?

A couple months ago while riding with my buddy (him on platform pedals, me on clips) I hit something that he couldn’t (or at least didn’t hit.) He jokingly said, “Cheater!”

Seriously?

If clips make jumping easier, why is it “cheating”? Name another component that makes riding a mountain bike easier (I said a mountain bike, not an ebike) that gives riders cause to call it cheating.

How about…
Employing a dropper?
Disc brakes? (As opposed to rim brakes)
29” wheels?
Long travel?

I simply don’t understand the platform pedal user’s disdain for clips. Don’t want ‘em? Then don’t use ‘em. Meanwhile please don’t imply that any/everyone who chooses to employ clips is a lesser rider because they lack some magical skill. Even if they lack the skill to jump on platform pedals.

Clip-in pedals may mitigate that lack. That doesn’t mean I ought to develop the ability to ride platform pedals (anymore than I “need” the ability to ride narrow handlebars, bad geometry, static-length seatpost, etc.)

Bottom line: personally I appreciate having the ability to lift my bike with my feet. So do most platform pedal users. It’s just harder for them to learn to do.
=sParty
I think you are generalizing. Some people take how they ride or what they ride like a religion but not all of us. My getting on the bandwagon for something is usually just basic enthusiasm or sharing what might help or give someone a good time.
 

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From my general observation, if you are jumping and hopping fine clipped in, you are likely using the correct method. Though you may be getting a little benefit of having the feet locked into place. I guess it is more like how being able to balance yourself in a straight line without your hands on the bars vs HAVING to keep your hands on the bars. You shouldn't have to hold on, but it makes it easier. You should be able to ride a bike in most terrain with just a gentle touch on the bars, and the same is true with proper form on the pedals. I can ride the chunkiest of downhills with flat pedals just fine. I prefer trail riding with flat pedals for a multitude of reasons.

But I clip into my XC race bike. I use the exact same form between the two, I just don't have to worry about my feet falling off if I get sloppy. Also get the benefit of lighter, stiffer shoes and that little bit more circle efficiency (good flats and shoes are pretty efficient).

You can tell the people who use bad form because they are always clipped in and only know that method. They look extremely stiff and awkward in the air, and usually catch very little air too because they have a tough time controlling the bike with their body weight, they are adapted to relying on their feet.
 

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I move my feet around a lot on flat pedals. Granted I only use them at bike parks so it's uber tech, big jumps, etc. However, to state the obvious, you're locked into a singular position clipped in. That alone creates subtleties in the techniques used.

I don't think any intermediate or advanced rider out there is strictly trying to pull their bike up in the air with their feet. Not sure where all this absolute speak regarding one or the other originates from but from where I sit it's kind of silly.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
 

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Not sure where all this absolute speak regarding one or the other originates from but from where I sit it's kind of silly.
Usually only applies to those who strictly limit what sort of stuff they ride, be it equipment, trails, or style.
Most of the better mountain bikers I know mix it up.
 
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Pro Crastinator
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. For me the default saddle position is down and the "dropper" is just there to raise the saddle when I need it. So it's not a question of needing to drop it, it's about when it needs to be raised.
same. from riding mostly bmx my entire life, all of my saddles default positions are already almost all the way down. so i never need to drop my saddle, but every now and again i will raise it...
 

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OK this is an aside... but I grew up riding BMX in the 70's and 80's...nobody, I mean nobody, that I knew, in the magazines I read with racing and bike tests...even the freestyle guys, had their seats down...It was all high posts galore. I didnt even know that was a thing that could be done until the late 90's. Where did it all come from?
 

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I didnt even know that was a thing that could be done until the late 90's. Where did it all come from?
No idea specifically but it's the evolution of equipment and techniques. 30 yrs from now our kids will be sitting around wondering the same thing about what we're doing now :D
 

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For me the transition to "new" geometry came 5 years ago, when I got my current bike. Went from a classic 26" XC hardtail to a trail/enduro 27.5" ht. New bike had 10cm longer front center, 4 degrees slacker head angle and 30mm more travel, plus 30mm extra reach compared to the old one. It also had a dropper post, something that I was considering before as I really felt it would be helpful where I ride. Comparing drivetrains, it was a move from 2x9 to 1x11.

I immediately felt the geometry of the new bike was better. I could tell the difference in wheelsize and the longer wheelbase too. It climbed, pedaled and descended better. It allowed me to clear steep climbs that gave trouble before, and that was on a WTB Riddler, a semislick! That was something I didn't expect, as slacker bikes weren't supposed to climb well.

There were some parts that were disappointing (Yari fork, trailboss front tyre), but the geo was a significant imporvement without any drawbacks.

It took me months to get to know it well and ride it like it deserved to be ridden. Major difference in approach was going over obstales instead of around them. In many cases that would have been very risky wih the old geo.

I'm now at a point where I look at getting a new bike again, as things have moved on once more. Despite my 5yr old bike being well ahead of it's time, current models are longer in wheelbase, slacker in HTA and steeper in STA. Not sure how I feel about the shorter ETT theat most '21-'22 bikes have, I will have to try one. I'll problably go for a 29er too for the change in flavor.
 

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Evolutionsverlierer
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I am adjusting to nothing and to no one so I still ride my bikes the way my grandma taught me to ride decades ago when I got my stingray with training wheels as an adolescent.
 
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OK this is an aside... but I grew up riding BMX in the 70's and 80's...nobody, I mean nobody, that I knew, in the magazines I read with racing and bike tests...even the freestyle guys, had their seats down...It was all high posts galore. I didnt even know that was a thing that could be done until the late 90's. Where did it all come from?
They were still way lower than roadie height. Hoffman's saddle here (1987) I think is slightly lower (relative to knee height) than my saddle with 210mm of drop (I'm 6'5"). Back in the day they ran the saddle high enough to pinch with their knees for no handed tricks. I have seen some earlier footage of BMXers running even higher saddles but the point remains...both sports evolved past that. There's no benefit to running a high saddle unless you're butt is on it.

Oh and to answer your question, BMXers eventually realized they didn't need to punch the seat for barspins and other no handed tricks. You can pinch the cranks with your feet and seat with your calves. Saddles have been mostly slammed since then.

 

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I still have my childhood BMX bike from the 80's. It is in rough shape, I should clean it up.

The saddle is slammed.
 

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I came up as a BMX kid in the late 80s to early 90s myself. Seats were slammed from the very beginning for me. I mostly rode dirt jumps and street stuff. (Along with the daily commute to and from school and general hellionism.) 95% of the time we were riding out of the saddle.

This held true for me when I got my first mountain bike in 2010. It was a rigid 29er with no quick release on the seatpost. I kept the saddle just high enough to be semi-comfortable while pedaling, but give me room to move going down and on jumps . At least until I put a dropper on it a couple of years ago.

Fast forward to today on my Ripley AF and most of my mountain rides are substantial climbs followed by descents. Those descents do have some flatter sections and shorter climbs on the way down. For the most part, the saddle is up for the climb, gets dropped at the top and rarely goes back up again.
 

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I’m a little confused by the bar length being discussed as part of modern geometry. I assume by “modern geo” we are talking about the major changes over the past 3-5 years. But 750-800 mm bars long predate that. Plenty of people were running bars that wide 10 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter · #140 ·
I’m a little confused by the bar length being discussed as part of modern geometry. I assume by “modern geo” we are talking about the major changes over the past 3-5 years. But 750-800 mm bars long predate that. Plenty of people were running bars that wide 10 years ago.
By "Modern" I meant as a "standard" or how they come spec'd from the manufacturer (not hacks/mods done by people at one time or another)
 
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