[Axis II]

I like the idea of one of these but have no experience either first hand or otherwise with these two offerings. Damn they would look sweet up front, though. I always wanted one of those Amps back in the day but, of course had no ching. These two forks seem to have some european advocates. Anyone care to shed some light on either of these forks. From what I can see they both weigh in around 1200-1300g.

 

[tmaybee]

I have one. It's a Noleen Carbon Crosslink. I don't have an up to date pic. My fork now has all Ti bolts and a Risse air shock. It ends up being quite light and it is VERY stiff. It is not very plush though. It works very well on more square-edged hits.

https://idriders.com/proflex/galleries/tmaybee/my_856_Front.JPG

Cheers,
Trevor

 

[DeeEight]

The Look Fournales fork is NOT a noleen crosslink carbon, they look similar but they're quite different. There was a third fork with that style linkage, the Quasar, a british fork from the early 90s.

The other fork looks like the Amp F1 thru F3 linkage style mated to an air shock instead of a coil spring/oil thru-shaft damper arrangement.

 

[JmZ]

I'm still an Amp F-4 Rider.

Pros: Light weight.
Tracks great.
Light.
Hey, I like the looks.

Cons: Harder to tune (weight wise and suspension wise). The new ones should have an advantage on it.
Hey, I LIKE the looks.
The axle path isn't the same as a telescopic fork.
The double crown style (Noleen/Pro-Flex/Look) can make the geometry feel a bit different since they require a certain head tube size - either you get lucky and get it perfect, or it'll take spacers to make it up. The 'single crown' version is the one I prefer currently.

If I could find another good linkage fork for the new bike, I'd jump. (Assuming I could afford the darn thing.) Right now there are very few true 80mm 3 pound forks. (And when they do exist they are around 7 bills.)

Good luck,

JmZ

I like the idea of one of these but have no experience either first hand or otherwise with these two offerings. Damn they would look sweet up front, though. I always wanted one of those Amps back in the day but, of course had no ching. These two forks seem to have some european advocates. Anyone care to shed some light on either of these forks. From what I can see they both weigh in around 1200-1300g.

 

[Slobberdoggy]

From what i have read on other forums they are really stiff so in the that regard quite good. Their weight is getting close to the light spinner and rock shox forks AFAIK. Another one is called the Kilo. www.starbike.com sells them. Their biggest problem is they are taller/longer then the standard sus fork so it would change the geometry of an existing frame or you would want to get a custom frame. Other than that crucial issue I think they are supposed to be really really good. Don't know for sure, but if I were getting a custom made frame I would seriously consider the kilo and perhaps one of those others. I would be surprised if anyone here uses them since they are kind of a weird Euro thing (not considering the AMP - my friend has one BTW)

 

[nino]

beware!

From what i have read on other forums they are really stiff so in the that regard quite good. Their weight is getting close to the light spinner and rock shox forks AFAIK. Another one is called the Kilo. www.starbike.com sells them. Their biggest problem is they are taller/longer then the standard sus fork so it would change the geometry of an existing frame or you would want to get a custom frame. Other than that crucial issue I think they are supposed to be really really good. Don't know for sure, but if I were getting a custom made frame I would seriously consider the kilo and perhaps one of those others. I would be surprised if anyone here uses them since they are kind of a weird Euro thing (not considering the AMP - my friend has one BTW)

correct - there's the Look/Fournales and the German-a Kilo. and for sure older AMP forks.

i have ridden the AMPs and with the Look. with the Look icouldn't find a setting i liked. it would either bob and blow through the travel or be too stiff and use only half of the travel. we weren't able to find the right mix.

now to the Kilo which in my eyes is a faulty construction:
the fork might have a perfect damper, it's stiff and all BUT the overall lenght is MUCH bigger than comparable forks. it measures 48cm which is the lenght of 120mm forks. on the other side it offers just 78mm of travel!!

so put tthat fok into a any crosscountry bike and you offset your geometry by 2 degrees (slower steering that is). it not only changes your steering angle but also raises your BB height, it also affects your seat angle as well as the center of gravity. any technically oriented guy understands that these numbers alone make that fork useless.

now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well. several manucfacturers tried for years but as we all know the telescopic fork is the one that's used by ALL manufacturers. the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel....

anyway - you realize i don't like the Kilo at all. however the carbon prototype shown at Eurobike had a super-low weight. it wasn't raceable yet...

anyway - the only bikes i see that could accept a German-A fork would be 100mm XC-fullys. but then you give up 22mm of travel...

hey - have we ever talked about the cost of these? we better dont!

 

[STS]

now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well.

Lot of BMW motorbikes use linkage front suspension (more sofisticated than mtb ones...)

 

[chris m]

BMWs use something called Telelever. To use an analogy: if a telescopic fork is like a swingarm rear end and a linkage fork is like a Horst Link rear end, then Telelever is like a faux bar rear end!

 

[nino]

well...

Lot of BMW motorbikes use linkage front suspension (more sofisticated than mtb ones...)

if you want to call BMW motorcycles
you still don't see a single linkage fork in sports application! BMW is testing a prototype GP1 motorcycle and guess what forks they use???

 

[tmaybee]

The Look Fournales fork is NOT a noleen crosslink carbon, they look similar but they're quite different. There was a third fork with that style linkage, the Quasar, a british fork from the early 90s.

The other fork looks like the Amp F1 thru F3 linkage style mated to an air shock instead of a coil spring/oil thru-shaft damper arrangement.

Sorry I was unclear. I meant I have a linkage fork.

 

[uktrailmonster]

Whyte bikes used to make this contraption. Interesting but pointless.

 

[Axis II]

the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel....

This is correct. It also isn't necessarily a good thing in my book. Case in point: last weekend it starts to rain on my last lap. The trail is slick. I brake to scrub off some speed for a tight corner. Suddenly it's like I'm on ice as the dust over hardpack has turned to slime. The bike rockets forward in full front brake dive fashion with the SID. I kiss a smallish rock with the front tire at the apex of the turn and promptly go over the front end and on me head providing great entertainment to my riding partners.:madman: Thanks, guys.

 

[peabody]

nino

"now another fact: you don't see any linkage forks in motorsports! if this system would have any advantage over a telescopic fork you bet it would be used in motorcycles as well. several manucfacturers tried for years but as we all know the telescopic fork is the one that's used by ALL manufacturers. the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel...."

I finally agree with you on something

 

[uktrailmonster]

the manufactiurers of linkage forks always praise how their forks remain up when braking into corners not giving away any valuable travel...well - the fact that a telescopic fork compresses is also a welcomed feature to some degree. a compressed fork makes for steeper head angle and thus allows sharper steering. it moves the center of gravity forward and thius makes for more grip on the front wheel....

This is correct. It also isn't necessarily a good thing in my book. Case in point: last weekend it starts to rain on my last lap. The trail is slick. I brake to scrub off some speed for a tight corner. Suddenly it's like I'm on ice as the dust over hardpack has turned to slime. The bike rockets forward in full front brake dive fashion with the SID. I kiss a smallish rock with the front tire at the apex of the turn and promptly go over the front end and on me head providing great entertainment to my riding partners.:madman: Thanks, guys.

Any normal telescopic fork will dive under braking (due to the forward load transfer). Low speed compression damping or simply a higher spring rate are the only things that will reduce dive in this situation.

Linkage forks on the other hand can be designed with anti-dive geometry i.e the braking forces act through the linkages with a tendency to extend the fork (of course the fork still dives to some extent, but less than it would with no counteracting anti-dive force). Unfortunately "anti-dive" also leads to a loss of feel and ultimate grip under braking.

The problem you had with the SID was that you ran out of travel!! Looks like you had it set too soft for the job in hand.

 

[Slobberdoggy]

@nino 2 things. Like I and you mentioned these forks are very tall so like I said a custom frame would be the only answer.

2nd, I'm not sure if the argument that it is not used in motorcycles therefore it is not a good system is true. The alternative argument might be because mtb's are so much more sensitive/driven to reduce weight. MX can have, and need to have, big thick stanchion tubes with really well made internal guts (heavy stuff w/o worry - not weightweenies). At the same time mx and other 2 wheel racing demand really good suspension while mtb's are IMO not quite at that level of performance. With the drive for lighter weight forks on mtbs, a linkage fork might be more ideal than a stanchion tubed fork because the stanchions end up getting flexy thin or made with riskier designs - Alloy steerer and stanchion tubes.

I'm not saying this is fact but just perhaps the "thought/idea" behind the appeal of a linkage fork. The linkage forks prolly need a lot of development in the face of the Spinner Ares and other forks out. It's a bit of a leap but cars have linkage systems in their suspension like these forks. I also wouldn't be surprised if fork manufacturers have a vested interest to stick with stanchion tubes.

 

[JasonPruitt]

You could check on one of the old Lawwill Leader forks. I heard good things about it back in the day. I think Control Tech bought the rights to it, seeing them make a comeback maybe they will do a new pimpin carbon one or something.

 

[Axis II]

Any normal telescopic fork will dive under braking (due to the forward load transfer). Low speed compression damping or simply a higher spring rate are the only things that will reduce dive in this situation.

Linkage forks on the other hand can be designed with anti-dive geometry i.e the braking forces act through the linkages with a tendency to extend the fork (of course the fork still dives to some extent, but less than it would with no counteracting anti-dive force). Unfortunately "anti-dive" also leads to a loss of feel and ultimate grip under braking.

The problem you had with the SID was that you ran out of travel!! Looks like you had it set too soft for the job in hand.

Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.

 

[Axis II]

Whyte bikes used to make this contraption. Interesting but pointless.

View attachment 175699

Ahhhh!!!!! I don't think I've ever seen a bike that looks more frightening. It looks like it came straight outa Terminator I. Thanks, I know I'm gonna have a nightmare of that thing riding me down tonight.:eekster:

 

[uktrailmonster]

Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.

Does your SID have motion control damping? I know the latest version does. You can use this to achieve pretty much what you're asking for. The Fox Terralogic F80X is another fork that would help you too.

Anti-dive linkage forks only lose their sensitivity whenever you apply the front brake. They are fully active at all other times. You may benefit from the anti-dive geometry, but I think the above conventional forks provide more powerful anti-dive characteristics anyway.

 

[nino]

here's what you need...

Well, I had/have it pumped up as far as I dare and I'd still like it to be stiffer. What I'd really like is a fork that just takes the bite out of the big hits and doesn't throw the geometry off or soak up power for everything else.. The lack of small bump sensitivity in linkage forks actually sounds really good to me. The stiffer the better, IMO. I can handle the small stuff with my body just fine. If I could get the SID to take 15 more pounds of air I think I'd have it where I want it. The flexy stancions are another matter altogether.

you definitely should try the Spinner Aeris then! it does exactly what you describe above (and what i demand as well)...