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"El Whatever"
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been watching some pics out of the R01... and I have some questions roaring in my head....

Why did Honda stuck to the single pivot??

No SPV on the showa shock???

No Floating Discs at the rear???

Shouldn't all this mean that this bike will have serious brakejacking and poor acceleration. They can reduce it by the pivot location but still the design is limited....

No wonder they needed such a good racer as Minaar (he already won a World championship on a single pivot like the Orange)...

Are the 4-bar linkages dead in DH??

Okay honda stuck to their partners who have a lot of moto experience and involved in winning everything on two motored wheels... but I feel they are a step behind the competition regarding bike technology (gearbox apart)... is it just my impression???
 

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the point of the bike is to:

1) develop new technology not necessarily related to mountainbiking
2) promote the Honda brand name by getting to the podium everytime
3) get their engineers rocks off...

if Minaar wanted an SPV shock over the Showa stuff that also comes with 3 suspension technicians, then he'd probably get it. Also gawd knows whats inside that Showa anyways, it most certainly has low and high speed adjustments (low acting like Fox's ProPedal), and may even be position sensitive. SPV is a trademarked technology, it doesnt mean it doesnt have an analogous or superior system. Hell not everyone has/wants SPV anyways. You see everyone riding SPV stuff?

not all pros want/need floating brakes on their single pivots, some would rather save weight, and some barely use their rear brakes to even merit using one.

the modified chainline probably makes it a pretty good pedaller. Some people also dont feel theres a clear benefit to using 4 bars, again, they want lighter. It was probably also chose because it simplifies an already busy design

why would you say 4 bars are dead? because of one concept bike that isnt even in production?

step behind the competiton? what competition? they dont produce bikes, what are they competing against? they're winning everything anyways...
 

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zedro said:
the point of the bike is to:

1) develop new technology not necessarily related to mountainbiking
2) promote the Honda brand name by getting to the podium everytime
3) get their engineers rocks off...

if Minaar wanted an SPV shock over the Showa stuff that also comes with 3 suspension technicians, then he'd probably get it. Also gawd knows whats inside that Showa anyways, it most certainly has low and high speed adjustments (low acting like Fox's ProPedal), and may even be position sensitive. SPV is a trademarked technology, it doesnt mean it doesnt have an analogous or superior system. Hell not everyone has/wants SPV anyways. You see everyone riding SPV stuff?

not all pros want/need floating brakes on their single pivots, some would rather save weight, and some barely use their rear brakes to even merit using one.

the modified chainline probably makes it a pretty good pedaller. Some people also dont feel theres a clear benefit to using 4 bars, again, they want lighter. It was probably also chose because it simplifies an already busy design

why would you say 4 bars are dead? because of one concept bike that isnt even in production?

step behind the competiton? what competition? they dont produce bikes, what are they competing against? they're winning everything anyways...
Is it just me or is it RN-01 day today, Zedro?

Brian
 

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"El Whatever"
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Honda already produces technology not related to MTB everywhere... they even build planes now. Why MTB???

For showing off?? Good Point.. they even lend the bike to F1 drivers who don't have any idea of DH and pedal the thing all over the paddock with slick tires... so it's credible.

You replied to my question fairly well... nobody knows what's inside the Showa, and they need three racing engineers for the thing now it's being developed. And yes, Showa could be interested on entering the MTB market... some years ago it was Zoke or Showa if you wanted decent suspension on a motorcycle.

I'm not saying 4-bars are dead... it just makes me wonder... Vouilloz bike was a single pivot. Peat's and Minaar's are single pivots... It's just that I see very few 4-bars up there in the podiums. I was not referring just to Honda.

Yep... they're winning everything 'cause they gave the bike to the "winning everything" guy. Give the bike to Ann Caro Chausson and it will look like the best bike ever made of the world.... I'd like to think what the Fred DH says about how the thing rides like but nobody had been that close.
 

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Warp2003 said:
I'm not saying 4-bars are dead... it just makes me wonder... Vouilloz bike was a single pivot. Peat's and Minaar's are single pivots... It's just that I see very few 4-bars up there in the podiums. I was not referring just to Honda.

Yep... they're winning everything 'cause they gave the bike to the "winning everything" guy.
because top level guys usually want light weight over subtle pedalling/suspension differences. On the other hand, less accomplished riders may appreciate a techno-performance boost.

and of course they're gonna hire the best rider; to think its because the bike is sub-par is beyond cynical. They obviously want to garantee the spotlight and the podium, or else why bother putting the Honda logo on a non-production concept bike, or even bother racing the circuit? you think they'd hand a 70k bike project to the hands of joe-nobody? does Ferrari hire M.S. because their cars couldn't win otherwise? no, they want the best in every aspect.
 

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Warp2003 said:
I've been watching some pics out of the R01... and I have some questions roaring in my head....

Why did Honda stuck to the single pivot??
No Floating Discs at the rear???

Shouldn't all this mean that this bike will have serious brakejacking and poor acceleration. They can reduce it by the pivot location but still the design is limited....

No wonder they needed such a good racer as Minaar (he already won a World championship on a single pivot like the Orange)...
"Brake jack" is a misleading term. The only bike in recent memory that actually extends the bike under brake force was the Yeti DH8 when it didn't have a floating brake assembly (and, due to design similarities, the Schwinn DH8 and the original Tomac 200). Single pivot bikes actually squat down under braking, which in some rider's opinions, is a good thing. Normally hard braking occurrs right before entering a corner, and having your bike squatting low into a corner is a bonus as your center of gravity will resultingly sit lower down.

It is hate on the RN1 day indeed. I think the bike is rad, my hat is off to Honda for giving pro DH racing useable gearbox technology and actually going through with it. Putting aside that whole can of worms, they also are putting money into the sport by taking two riders to nationals and world cups. There are so many companies pulling out of DH racing right now it's nice to know some people still take it seriously. Yeah, it sucks that Honda might not have a long-term commitment to the industry and I will probably never be able to ride one of their bikes, but they're here now and we're all benefitting from it (even at the level of mindless banter subject on internet message boards).

Edit: More thoughts . . . Even if Honda doesn't get into the retail side of mountain biking, they might bring in Showa, Kayaba, Renthal or other moto manufacturers who can provide top-level products at mega-company prices.
 

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Warp2003 said:
I've been watching some pics out of the R01... and I have some questions roaring in my head....

Why did Honda stuck to the single pivot??

No SPV on the showa shock???

No Floating Discs at the rear???

Shouldn't all this mean that this bike will have serious brakejacking and poor acceleration. They can reduce it by the pivot location but still the design is limited....

No wonder they needed such a good racer as Minaar (he already won a World championship on a single pivot like the Orange)...

Are the 4-bar linkages dead in DH??

Okay honda stuck to their partners who have a lot of moto experience and involved in winning everything on two motored wheels... but I feel they are a step behind the competition regarding bike technology (gearbox apart)... is it just my impression???
Your questions prove one thing. It is all about the rider. Not the bike. There are no bad bikes at this level of racing. Only poor setup choices (which is something that most riders including the magazine guys don't have the skill or concern to do.) If you are looking for a new bike to make you faster, that time, money and effort is better spent on a coach, practice and a heart rate monitor. I know one thing, having spent time in the HRC pits at the AMA superbike events and world superbike, Honda doesn't do ANYTHING without a really good reason.
To answer your questions-
Single pivots work great with proper setup. 4 bar linkages work poorly without proper setup.
SPV is a feature that makes up for the fact that most people don't know beans about suspension setup.
By floating disc in the rear do you mean a floating caliper system ( like brake therapy) or a rotor blade that floats on its carrier? Both are nice to have but not necessary for good performance.
4 bar linkages are not dead by any stretch of the imagination. Their main advantage is that they are easily adjustable.
If anything, the technology on that bike is cutting edge. And guess what, he's running last years deore xt calipers and master cylinders ;ike many other pros on the circuit. Newer doesn't always mean better.
Galfer USA
 

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galferusa said:
And guess what, he's running last years deore xt calipers and master cylinders ;ike many other pros on the circuit. Newer doesn't always mean better.
exactly...

does the fact that more (most...i know zedro and jm) ppl would prefer and pay more money for an 03 or 02 monster or shiver than an 04...ring a bell...
 

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"El Whatever"
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
zedro said:
and of course they're gonna hire the best rider; to think its because the bike is sub-par is beyond cynical. They obviously want to garantee the spotlight and the podium, or else why bother putting the Honda logo on a non-production concept bike, or even bother racing the circuit? you think they'd hand a 70k bike project to the hands of joe-nobody? does Ferrari hire M.S. because their cars couldn't win otherwise? no, they want the best in every aspect.
FYI... Ferrari hired MS when the car was complete junk (and I mean complete junk). They wanted the best guy to help develop a car... which speaks very good out of Minaar. He might have the best hands (and lungs) in the whole racing circuit and honda obviously was aware of that 'cos you can have the best engineers in the world but you always need a good tester to make reality what the engineers try to develop. The Honda might not be junk like the Ferrari was but still needs development and that's something a thousand engineers wouldn't accomplish without a terrific tester. I didn't mean the Honda is not a good bike. I was just wondering if the bike as a final product was worth all the money invested by Honda... say how good is it comparing it against an Orange or a Foes Mono??? At the end Honda will make it worthy thru development... but what as of now??

Don't get me wrong... I'm not a Honda hater. My hat out to the guys for actually making an investment in MTB. I just wish they would have taken it to the masses. But who knows?? Maybe we just gotta wait.

I'd really like to see Showa giving Zoke a hard time (I don't hate Zoke - it's just that competition is always good). Maybe the day is not far when we see a full japanese bike (other than Fuji??? I'll take the rotten onions for not knowing if Fuji is japanese or what).

Thanks for the clarification on four bars and floating brakes.... I was a bit mislead as you see all those Intense and others so hyped that you end up thinking those are the best machines out there... and for the clarification on the brake jack term.

And yes... I'm still trying to figure out why Shitmano ditched the old 4p XT for the new design (which I've read has issues with pistons). Newer is not always better.

What about the Akebono brakes initially installed on the Honda... also, on the MBA article about it, there's some pics where there are some Fox decals on the carbon seatpost subframe... what's Fox participation on the project if Showa was doing suspension???
 

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I wanna talk to Samson!
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Warp2003 said:
also, on the MBA article about it, there's some pics where there are some Fox decals on the carbon seatpost subframe... what's Fox participation on the project if Showa was doing suspension???
maybe it was a sticker from the fox clothing company, not the same as the shock company.
 

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James @ Go-Ride said:
Edit: More thoughts . . . Even if Honda doesn't get into the retail side of mountain biking, they might bring in Showa, Kayaba, Renthal or other moto manufacturers who can provide top-level products at mega-company prices.
Good point. I ride MX and I would like to see more companies bringing in new products to us Mountain bikers. Kayaba inverts... Renthal Handle Bars... Gold Series Chains...
 

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galferusa said:
There are no bad bikes at this level of racing.
I don't really pretend to know that much about racing, but I know that Lopes claims that he quit racing DH because the Cannondale bikes were so bad. He dropped far back into the ranks when he switched to their new bike (99 I think). Check out the most recent issue of Decline. There are "bad" bikes sometimes. Companies always seek to push the barrier of innovation and do something really unique, but often end up mis-firing. Check out the Sea Otter Issue of Decline...
 
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