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Discussion Starter #1
I've been thinking this one over a bit. It would be a cool mod to put a coil into the right leg of the 66SL. Anyone know if the leg and damper assmbly are the same as the right leg of the RC2x? If so, then it should be no more than dropping a spacer and a spring in there right?

It seems like I could do a lot more with modifying spring curves if I had a option of one coil. I could still use the negative air pressure to lower the fork, which is the main reason I bought it to begin with. I would also have the extra backup reliability of a coil, which wouldn't hurt.

Anyone know how much those springs weigh?
 

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noMAD man
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I remember Brian Peterson

Robot Chicken said:
I've been thinking this one over a bit. It would be a cool mod to put a coil into the right leg of the 66SL. Anyone know if the leg and damper assmbly are the same as the right leg of the RC2x? If so, then it should be no more than dropping a spacer and a spring in there right?

It seems like I could do a lot more with modifying spring curves if I had a option of one coil. I could still use the negative air pressure to lower the fork, which is the main reason I bought it to begin with. I would also have the extra backup reliability of a coil, which wouldn't hurt.

Anyone know how much those springs weigh?
Mentioning recently that the carts for some of the 66 series were going to be much more expensive than some of their past counterparts like Z1s and such...and they didn't give those away either.

Does Marz not offer an air/coil 66 model already, or is it some other issue you have with the 66SL? I haven't studied their current 66 lineup too closely as I feel they're total boat anchors, and I'm recommending everyone buy a Van 36 which is way superior...LOL...easy, RC...just kidding. The part about Brian's comment was true, however. Might call Marz to get pricing or even availability first. He commented too about there not being as much interchangability between models as there used to be. Maybe he'll chime in and shed some light on it.
 

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I don't know the answer to your question, but I'm curious to know more details about why you're interested in adding a coil as I'm considering buying either the 06 66sl or the 06 Z1 light for my afterburner/rfx.

is the mid-stroke on the sl too soft? are you thinking of using a 100mm coil and adding 70mm of spacers? (moving the spacers around for each travel setting).
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Actually I'm doing it for the hell of it. On the other hand though, the best thing about the SL is that it is really freakin light. Adding a spring would defeat that purpose.

The main differences are:

RC2X - Dual coil left leg X cart right leg RC2.
Light- LEft coil and ETA, Right RC2 and air.
SL - Left air right RC2 and air.

The right leg for the RC2X should be the the same with all the models.

Some people might want a 66sl because of the travel adjust, but also want some spring. Others might want ETA but use dual coil.

It's too early for me to go tearing my fork apart to inspect the possibilities.


Nothing wrong with my 66sl. It rocks. Just wondering how it could feel with coil added. HEavy riders over 250 lbs might also want to consider a coil for the SL for the extra spring, without going past 65 psi.
 

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I did a similar thing with a couple of '04 Z150SLs. I left the Doppio air leg intact and modified the other leg with a Z150 HSCV cart and coil from an '05 Z1FR1. I must admit that the fork action was noticeably better and tuneability was broader with the coil/air setup. Weight only increased by the amount of one spring which wasn't much at all, but tuneability and smoothness was well worth it. From your description there, isn't the 66 Light pretty much what you're describing as far as modifying a 66SL? Am I drunk or does the 66 Light look like the best deal of those three. I'm too lazy to go over to the Marz sight and read all the fine print...LOL! Besides, we all know the Van 36 is best. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
TNC said:
I did a similar thing with a couple of '04 Z150SLs. I left the Doppio air leg intact and modified the other leg with a Z150 HSCV cart and coil from an '05 Z1FR1. I must admit that the fork action was noticeably better and tuneability was broader with the coil/air setup. Weight only increased by the amount of one spring which wasn't much at all, but tuneability and smoothness was well worth it. From your description there, isn't the 66 Light pretty much what you're describing as far as modifying a 66SL? Am I drunk or does the 66 Light look like the best deal of those three. I'm too lazy to go over to the Marz sight and read all the fine print...LOL! Besides, we all know the Van 36 is best. ;)
The 66 light has ETA, but no way to adjust usable travel. If you want to stay at 170mm and don't care about extra weight then that's the one to get. A coil can be dropped into a 66sl and still be able to adjust the travel no differently than if it had air.

I've got nothing against the Fox 36 at all. It's a killer fork, even though it does have its downsides.

I expect the guys riding hardtails that do it all from XC to DJ to FR to DH on one rig would be able to have a fork that can be tuned on the spot for any of those styles. 66SL is going to be a hot seller once more reviews come in and people have them fully broken in.
 

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...the other thing that the SL has that the Light ETA hasen't is a bottom out adjust. The RC2X has the 'X' cart and the SL has the 'PAR' air bottom out thingy.

RC, how are you getting on with yours a few more days down the line? As someone else said, is there a lack of midstroke support or does it feel like a coil fork? I should have though the RC2 damping + PAR should mean there is plenty of control all through the travel?

Ordering mine early next week :)
 

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sampo said:
...the other thing that the SL has that the Light ETA hasen't is a bottom out adjust. The RC2X has the 'X' cart and the SL has the 'PAR' air bottom out thingy.

RC, how are you getting on with yours a few more days down the line? As someone else said, is there a lack of midstroke support or does it feel like a coil fork? I should have though the RC2 damping + PAR should mean there is plenty of control all through the travel?

Ordering mine early next week :)
The fork feels great the way it is. Feels more along the lines of a nicely tuned Marzocchi coil fork with high oil levels. That last inch is for the serious F-ups.

The fork's ability to swallow rocks instantly is great, although I do kind of miss being able to jump every pebble and rock in my way, the 66 kind of prevents the front wheel from leaving the ground. It holds traction incredibly well due to the soft initial stroke, yet will never hit bottom in a million years with the PAR at 30 psi.

The damping RC2 really hides the fact that this is an air fork. You can tune out brake dive with the low speed compression adjust. Not a single Marzocchi air fork of the past has had such a feature.

You can also tune spring curves with oil levels. I've done this many times to Marzocchi forks that are AIR/COIL. The air chamber will provide a more linear coil like spring curve the larger you make it by lowering the oil levels. The great thing about the NEW doppio system is that you can get away with low oil levels yet be able to control bottom out with the PAR. Usually, lowering oil levels on previous year models would pose a larger risk of bottoming.

We have yet to see the full potential of the 66SL until I open it up for an oil change, and start messing with oil levels. I already know I'm going to remove oil to at least lessen weight and to gain some more linear feel, just to see how it works.
 

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Bottomout.

sampo said:
...the other thing that the SL has that the Light ETA hasen't is a bottom out adjust. The RC2X has the 'X' cart and the SL has the 'PAR' air bottom out thingy.

RC, how are you getting on with yours a few more days down the line? As someone else said, is there a lack of midstroke support or does it feel like a coil fork? I should have though the RC2 damping + PAR should mean there is plenty of control all through the travel?

Ordering mine early next week :)
Couldn't you adjust bottomout on that 66 Light with oil level?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
TNC said:
Couldn't you adjust bottomout on that 66 Light with oil level?
Not on the trail. Plus, oil levels effect the entire fork stroke, the PAR and X cart only effect the end stroke. Pumping PAR to max 30psi has no effect on the first 6 inches of travel.
 

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Robot Chicken said:
I've been thinking this one over a bit. It would be a cool mod to put a coil into the right leg of the 66SL. Anyone know if the leg and damper assmbly are the same as the right leg of the RC2x? If so, then it should be no more than dropping a spacer and a spring in there right?

It seems like I could do a lot more with modifying spring curves if I had a option of one coil. I could still use the negative air pressure to lower the fork, which is the main reason I bought it to begin with. I would also have the extra backup reliability of a coil, which wouldn't hurt.

Anyone know how much those springs weigh?
I don't know about this... Plus, the ability to change your travel will be hindered because you will have to use negative air to compress the spring if you try to reduce the travel... And if you do that, the spring will become significantly preloaded so it won't ride so well... That doesn't happen on the TAS forks... Actually, a 150-170 adjustable 66 Light is what I requested after seeing the first specs...

Question.. All this talk about how far you can reduce the travel, but how many bikes out there still ride good with a 50-60mm change in front travel? In my experience, most bikes designed around a 170mm fork are not so bueno with a 100mm travel... Just curious...

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Brian Peterson said:
I don't know about this... Plus, the ability to change your travel will be hindered because you will have to use negative air to compress the spring if you try to reduce the travel... And if you do that, the spring will become significantly preloaded so it won't ride so well... That doesn't happen on the TAS forks... Actually, a 150-170 adjustable 66 Light is what I requested after seeing the first specs...

Question.. All this talk about how far you can reduce the travel, but how many bikes out there still ride good with a 50-60mm change in front travel? In my experience, most bikes designed around a 170mm fork are not so bueno with a 100mm travel... Just curious...

Brian
LoL, Your warranty department must hate me by now! :D

100mm would be good for someone wanting to go dirt jumping on their hardtail. A fork like this is ideal for hardcore hardtails, because a good hardtail can take any fork for any type of riding. The ability to have one bike do BOTH DJ and FR is not only cheaper, but allows you to ride different styles all in the same ride or day.

I like knowing that I can drop it down to 130mm for trail riding, or pop it up to 170 for FR. I take my FR rig on long XC rides too, so it helps.

I don't really see the Sl being usefull as a climbing tool.


I think you may be quite wrong about the coil spring and dropping the travel. Now obviously I won't be able to get it past 100mm, but it will go far down before becoming harsh.

Remember, the negative air spring is active through the whole fork travel. It's always pushing down on the positive springs. I've noticed that when I have a good air pressure at 170mm, lowering it without releasing positve pressure doesn't make the fork any harsher or more firm. I don't see how lowering the fork from 170mm with air and not releasing air would be any different than compressing a coil from 170mm.

If the negative chamber is high enough in pressure it will cause the suspension to remain at a static height. How can there be any preloading if the fork is holding a spot in travel without any assistance from the rider weight?

I am guessing a 170mm coil will feel good to around 130mm of compression.

Now if you guys would just come out with a TAS 66 light, I would be all over it!


Brian, would you happen to know if it is possible to drop a coil into there given that one of those plastic spring spacers is put into there? Or have I pushed you too much for "off the record info"? :D
 

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Robot Chicken said:
LoL, Your warranty department must hate me by now! :D

100mm would be good for someone wanting to go dirt jumping on their hardtail. A fork like this is ideal for hardcore hardtails, because a good hardtail can take any fork for any type of riding. The ability to have one bike do BOTH DJ and FR is not only cheaper, but allows you to ride different styles all in the same ride or day.

I like knowing that I can drop it down to 130mm for trail riding, or pop it up to 170 for FR. I take my FR rig on long XC rides too, so it helps.

I don't really see the Sl being usefull as a climbing tool.


I think you may be quite wrong about the coil spring and dropping the travel. Now obviously I won't be able to get it past 100mm, but it will go far down before becoming harsh.

Remember, the negative air spring is active through the whole fork travel. It's always pushing down on the positive springs. I've noticed that when I have a good air pressure at 170mm, lowering it without releasing positve pressure doesn't make the fork any harsher or more firm. I don't see how lowering the fork from 170mm with air and not releasing air would be any different than compressing a coil from 170mm.

If the negative chamber is high enough in pressure it will cause the suspension to remain at a static height. How can there be any preloading if the fork is holding a spot in travel without any assistance from the rider weight?

I am guessing a 170mm coil will feel good to around 130mm of compression.

Now if you guys would just come out with a TAS 66 light, I would be all over it!


Brian, would you happen to know if it is possible to drop a coil into there given that one of those plastic spring spacers is put into there? Or have I pushed you too much for "off the record info"? :D
The problem is that if you dropped a coil in there (If that is even possible..) and used the negative air to lower the fork, you would be preloading the crap out of the spring. Our springs used to be designed with a max of 20mm of preload able to be used on them. I say used to because of the differences in some of the models now. Example, the 66 models don't have any spring preload devices incorparated into the design. So the spring is most likely spec'ed around that. The 888 on the other hand does have a preload adjustment, the spring has to allow for the preload adjustment so you can still get full compression with max preload. Get what I am saying? I can pretty safely say the fork isn't going to ride as well with the spring loaded up like that..

On the air forks, the intention of the negative chamber is to overcome the initial stiction that is typical of air springs. And even thought we use a low pressure possitive air system, there is still that static friction at the beginning of the stroke to get past.

Brian
 

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Robot Chicken said:
I think you may be quite wrong about the coil spring and dropping the travel. Now obviously I won't be able to get it past 100mm, but it will go far down before becoming harsh.

Remember, the negative air spring is active through the whole fork travel. It's always pushing down on the positive springs. I've noticed that when I have a good air pressure at 170mm, lowering it without releasing positve pressure doesn't make the fork any harsher or more firm. I don't see how lowering the fork from 170mm with air and not releasing air would be any different than compressing a coil from 170mm.

If the negative chamber is high enough in pressure it will cause the suspension to remain at a static height. How can there be any preloading if the fork is holding a spot in travel without any assistance from the rider weight?

I am guessing a 170mm coil will feel good to around 130mm of compression.
You're saying a coil spring preloaded by 40mm won't feel decidedly more harsh? I think you are dead wrong. The right leg air in the SL is the only way to go....unless you were to have a custom spring wound for each travel level you want to use, which would defeat the purpose of trailside travel adjustments. With the air, you don't adjust/set it until after you've picked the travel you want. So in essence you never preload that spring, no matter what travel you run. Can't do that with a coil. It will feel like crap the lower you go, no way around it.
 

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Bulldog said:
You're saying a coil spring preloaded by 40mm won't feel decidedly more harsh? I think you are dead wrong. The right leg air in the SL is the only way to go....unless you were to have a custom spring wound for each travel level you want to use, which would defeat the purpose of trailside travel adjustments. With the air, you don't adjust/set it until after you've picked the travel you want. So in essence you never preload that spring, no matter what travel you run. Can't do that with a coil. It will feel like crap the lower you go, no way around it.
Here's the thing you guys are totally forgetting. The negative air chamber provides a neutralizing to the positive spring pressure.

Forget how tight a spring is at when compressed, air springs get tight too. What we have here is a balancing act.

If the positive pressures were preloaded feeling or not initialy soft then it would be impossible for the fork to hold itself down in travel reduction. If it can hold a static travel setting with no rider weight, then there is absolutely no preload acting on the NET positive pressures.


You guys would only be correct if the travel adjust used a mechanical lockdown device, which doesn't provide negative pressures past the holding point. In that case, you would have the travel lockdown used in the Sherman forks.

Remember, even though the positive spring gets tight, the negative pressures will neutralize that tightness for the first inch or two of travel. Adding more air AND matching it with more negative air to hold a travel setting, will not result in a preloaded ride, it will only effect the mid to end stroke.


I've taken mine up to 65 psi in each leg for the hell of it while it was at 170mm. I then lowered the fork a bit and noticed no increase in initial spring, yet an incredible increase in mid to end stroke.
 

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Robot Chicken said:
Here's the thing you guys are totally forgetting. The negative air chamber provides a neutralizing to the positive spring pressure.

Forget how tight a spring is at when compressed, air springs get tight too. What we have here is a balancing act.
With a preloaded coil in there your negative pressures will be off the charts and into the danger zone in no time. Sorry. If you are light enough you might be able to keep it safe at ~130mm travel - but stressing it like you are a 300lb gorilla - but you'll never be running the really short travel settings that you've already played with.
 

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Robot Chicken said:
I've been thinking this one over a bit. It would be a cool mod to put a coil into the right leg of the 66SL. Anyone know if the leg and damper assmbly are the same as the right leg of the RC2x? If so, then it should be no more than dropping a spacer and a spring in there right?

It seems like I could do a lot more with modifying spring curves if I had a option of one coil. I could still use the negative air pressure to lower the fork, which is the main reason I bought it to begin with. I would also have the extra backup reliability of a coil, which wouldn't hurt.

Anyone know how much those springs weigh?
I checked the books... The SL and the Light (Basically the 2 66 models that use air only in the right leg) use a different cartridge than the RC2X with a coil spring in there..

Brian
 
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