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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
2 options that both work...plus one good bonus option...

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The ghost-shifting was a major problem especially with the 02 and 03 models. Giant finally recognized that this problem was being caused by the flexion of the seatstays, which in turn slackens the cable and allows the rd to shift. Giant redesigned their '04 frame with stiffer seatstays. I suffered with this problem with my '02 frame until I finally found the solution after nearly 2 years.

Option 1: GOOD - The cable slackens between the two cable stops on the seat stay. Remedy this by running one continuous piece of housing from the top tube (nearest the seat tube) down to the rear derailleur. This way, when the seatstay flexes it will not affect the cable itself. You can even Dremmel out the stops and run the housing through them to make it all cleaner. I've used this on a few NRS frames, and the customers report a lot less problems.

Option 2: PERMANENT END TO PROBLEM - switch to a setup that uses an SRAM rear derailleur. It's not hype - this really works. The Shimano derailleurs take very little cable movement to shift the rd, such as the small amount that you get from seatstay flex. SRAM derailleurs take more cable movement to actuate a shift, so even with seatstay flex and a little slackening in the cable, the derraileur will stay put. No ghost-shifting...guaranteed. Every frame that I've switched to SRAM has reported perfect shifting, with no chain skip or ghost shifting at all. Problem solved.

Option 3: This one is good - since you already have an 04 frame this may not help, but hopefully it will help others with older frames and the notorious ghost-shifting problem. Giant, having recognized the ghost shifting problems, will replace older frames with current 04 models.

If money is a factor, go with the rerouting of the cable. If you've got some cash to spare, switch to SRAM. If you can go a couple of weeks without your bike, call Giant and get a brand new 04 frame.
 

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Nice Post man!!

I don't have a NRS, but have had two Warps with either SRAM or Shimano Cassettes I have some chain skip on the 2nd largest cog. On of the Warps ('03) used interrupted cable housing and the '04 used continous from near the BB area to the RD. Both are Shimano RD's (LX for the '03, Deore for the '04)

Any hints???
Thanks Dude!
 

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Gear Grinder said:
2 options that both work...plus one good bonus option...

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The ghost-shifting was a major problem especially with the 02 and 03 models. Giant finally recognized that this problem was being caused by the flexion of the seatstays, which in turn slackens the cable and allows the rd to shift. Giant redesigned their '04 frame with stiffer seatstays. I suffered with this problem with my '02 frame until I finally found the solution after nearly 2 years.

Option 1: GOOD - The cable slackens between the two cable stops on the seat stay. Remedy this by running one continuous piece of housing from the top tube (nearest the seat tube) down to the rear derailleur. This way, when the seatstay flexes it will not affect the cable itself. You can even Dremmel out the stops and run the housing through them to make it all cleaner. I've used this on a few NRS frames, and the customers report a lot less problems.

Option 2: PERMANENT END TO PROBLEM - switch to a setup that uses an SRAM rear derailleur. It's not hype - this really works. The Shimano derailleurs take very little cable movement to shift the rd, such as the small amount that you get from seatstay flex. SRAM derailleurs take more cable movement to actuate a shift, so even with seatstay flex and a little slackening in the cable, the derraileur will stay put. No ghost-shifting...guaranteed. Every frame that I've switched to SRAM has reported perfect shifting, with no chain skip or ghost shifting at all. Problem solved.

Option 3: This one is good - since you already have an 04 frame this may not help, but hopefully it will help others with older frames and the notorious ghost-shifting problem. Giant, having recognized the ghost shifting problems, will replace older frames with current 04 models.

If money is a factor, go with the rerouting of the cable. If you've got some cash to spare, switch to SRAM. If you can go a couple of weeks without your bike, call Giant and get a brand new 04 frame.
To start off your #3 solution is 100% false. Giant will not replace any older model NRS frames because of a ghost shifting problem.
Your #1 solution only works for some riders, it depends mostly on how you set up your rear shock. The more air pressure the less movement, therefor no ghost shifting. Only problem with this is that you can not really set the rear shock well for most terrains.
Your # 3 solution is fine as well, but you still have to play around with the air pressure in the rear shock to make it not ghost shift.

I have been working with NRS's since they first came out. The only 100% surefire solution that I have found to stop ghost shifting is to replace your cables with Nokon cables. The individual aluminum outer caseing makes it possable for the cable to glide freely and reduces any friction or movement that causes the ghost shifting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ILxcMTNbiker said:
To start off your #3 solution is 100% false. Giant will not replace any older model NRS frames because of a ghost shifting problem.
Your #1 solution only works for some riders, it depends mostly on how you set up your rear shock. The more air pressure the less movement, therefor no ghost shifting. Only problem with this is that you can not really set the rear shock well for most terrains.
Your # 3 solution is fine as well, but you still have to play around with the air pressure in the rear shock to make it not ghost shift.

I have been working with NRS's since they first came out. The only 100% surefire solution that I have found to stop ghost shifting is to replace your cables with Nokon cables. The individual aluminum outer caseing makes it possable for the cable to glide freely and reduces any friction or movement that causes the ghost shifting.
Then how do you explain my shiny new NRS1 frame that Giant sent me last spring? I dealt with them directly for myself and my customers, got a new frame, and received a direct explanation from them about why they redesigned the rear stays. Saying that it's 100% false is a strong comment, and unfortunately false.

The ghost shifting is due to seat stay flex, plain and simple, which is why solutions 1 and 2 work well, and why they redesigned the seat stays. Under hard pedaling efforts there is enough flex in the righ seat stay to allow the cable to move, in turn causing the derailleur to begin the shift process. There is not enough slack to allow it to shift fully, hence the skipping action.

You have to stop and think why a derailleur moves in the first place...cable movement. And why does the cable move? The cable stops get closer together during frame flex, and put slack in the system. What happens with cable slack? Derailleur moves. It sounds like you have a history of working on NRS's, so you must have a decent understanding of the engineering of various components. If so, you'll also understand that no matter what type of cables you have, lube you use, or shock setting you run...a derailleur will still shift when slack is put into the system. It's supposed to, because that's the way it was designed to function. Unfortunately, the rear triangle of the NRS was poorly designed initially, and created a problem whereby the derailleur would move under hard efforts.

By the way...I run $2 shifter cables, and they do the trick. I also am not fantastic in the maintenance schedule of my own bike, but with the SRAM derailleur (and it's 1:1 actuation ratio) I don't need to be. I suffered through two seasons of ghost shifting on my own race bike until I discovered the reason behind the shifting, and instituted these fixes. Giant underwent the same process, and on their end redesigned the rear triangle. Unless you're the engineer behind the NRS, it's tough ti argue with Giant. It all comes down to physics, not type of cable, shock setting, cogset, limit screw, or maintenance schedule. It's simply a matter of engineering, and through the feedback of good mechanics, and with a company that addressed the problem, the solution was discovered and problem solved.

Nice try...
 

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Odd, Giant told me I had no ghost shift issues. Seems to me I had them, so I ran a full cable from the cable stay on the mainframe by the rocker to the rear derailleur.
Oh, and tire rubs the non-drive side chainstay on compression...Giant rep didn't see that as an issue either. And the shop couldn't make the bike do either ghost shift nor tire rub...in the parking lot test.
Told me it was my wheel flexing. I taped a rod to the stay and pushed on the crankarm and observed the flex...like a beam torque wrench. Some flex in the wheel, but not enough for that alone to come clase to the frame.
Seems my 200# must be too much for the bike, though no comment was made about that by the Giant rep or the shop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Kronk said:
Odd, Giant told me I had no ghost shift issues. Seems to me I had them, so I ran a full cable from the cable stay on the mainframe by the rocker to the rear derailleur.
Oh, and tire rubs the non-drive side chainstay on compression...Giant rep didn't see that as an issue either. And the shop couldn't make the bike do either ghost shift nor tire rub...in the parking lot test.
Told me it was my wheel flexing. I taped a rod to the stay and pushed on the crankarm and observed the flex...like a beam torque wrench. Some flex in the wheel, but not enough for that alone to come clase to the frame.
Seems my 200# must be too much for the bike, though no comment was made about that by the Giant rep or the shop.
Yeah, some reps (and shops) are better than others, and some give the company a better name than others through their customer care. Our local rep is not terribly knowledgable about the issues with this bike, but the guys in the service department at the Giant offices certainly are. If your rep is not very useful, try to go straight to the service guys in the corporate offices. The guys at both the Canada and US offices are great, and really know their stuff when it comes to the bikes.

The shop should want to help you with any issues, and that will mean that they themselves get on the phone with the company for you (and they might learn something about the bikes in the process).

Concerning rider weight - the service guys admitted that though the NRS was not the ideal bike for the heavier riders, it was still a design flaw that brought out the ghost shifting anyway.
 

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Gear Grinder said:
Then how do you explain my shiny new NRS1 frame that Giant sent me last spring? I dealt with them directly for myself and my customers, got a new frame, and received a direct explanation from them about why they redesigned the rear stays. Saying that it's 100% false is a strong comment, and unfortunately false.

The ghost shifting is due to seat stay flex, plain and simple, which is why solutions 1 and 2 work well, and why they redesigned the seat stays. Under hard pedaling efforts there is enough flex in the righ seat stay to allow the cable to move, in turn causing the derailleur to begin the shift process. There is not enough slack to allow it to shift fully, hence the skipping action.

You have to stop and think why a derailleur moves in the first place...cable movement. And why does the cable move? The cable stops get closer together during frame flex, and put slack in the system. What happens with cable slack? Derailleur moves. It sounds like you have a history of working on NRS's, so you must have a decent understanding of the engineering of various components. If so, you'll also understand that no matter what type of cables you have, lube you use, or shock setting you run...a derailleur will still shift when slack is put into the system. It's supposed to, because that's the way it was designed to function. Unfortunately, the rear triangle of the NRS was poorly designed initially, and created a problem whereby the derailleur would move under hard efforts.

By the way...I run $2 shifter cables, and they do the trick. I also am not fantastic in the maintenance schedule of my own bike, but with the SRAM derailleur (and it's 1:1 actuation ratio) I don't need to be. I suffered through two seasons of ghost shifting on my own race bike until I discovered the reason behind the shifting, and instituted these fixes. Giant underwent the same process, and on their end redesigned the rear triangle. Unless you're the engineer behind the NRS, it's tough ti argue with Giant. It all comes down to physics, not type of cable, shock setting, cogset, limit screw, or maintenance schedule. It's simply a matter of engineering, and through the feedback of good mechanics, and with a company that addressed the problem, the solution was discovered and problem solved.

Nice try...
Do not want to argue with you, but just call the warranty guys at Giant USA and they will tell you that they do not and have never warrantied a NRS frame for the SOLE purpose of the ghost shifting problem. Sorry but that is the truth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
ILxcMTNbiker said:
Do not want to argue with you, but just call the warranty guys at Giant USA and they will tell you that they do not and have never warrantied a NRS frame for the SOLE purpose of the ghost shifting problem. Sorry but that is the truth.
Every service guy will tell you that...it's not something that they WANT to do, but when they talk to a knowledgeable mechanic it's something they WILL do. They know there's a problem with the design, and if you mention the right things that's their solution.

I'm just trying to help you guys out here. I myself have had several frames warrantied for my customers (and one for myself), and I thought I'd share that with you. The only thing I won't do is give you the names of Giant HQ, and the exact people to ask for. But, you seem reluctant to help yourself out, and that's your perogative. If you're a wrench then you need to be open to new possibilities and solutions, and if not then I wish you many years of happiness on your NRS, and hope that you don't experience any ghost shifting.

It's discussions like this that make me reluctant to want to help people out...you don't make it easy, and I shouldn't have waste my time trying to convince anyone here.
 

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I had gone to a second shop, had the same rep.
Got the same story about never having a warranty for ghost shifting.
I asked about the full cable housing, and that agreed as something to try.
After looking at the 2004 models with the full housing, I drilled my seatstay stops out and ran the cable through them instead of zip ties next to them...probably voided any warranty.

Always open to solutions!
Not a shop wrench, but not exactly out of my league when working on my bike. I had to correct several things the shop messed up on the original build.

I didn't seem to find who to contact directly at Giant on the website. The shop I bought the bike at wasn't even close to helpful the last go 'round. When I took it to the second shop, I was told the rep recalled my situation, and that I should only try claims through the shop I bought it at.

I think things may have been different if I were visiting your shop GG.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Kronk said:
I had gone to a second shop, had the same rep.
Got the same story about never having a warranty for ghost shifting.
I asked about the full cable housing, and that agreed as something to try.
After looking at the 2004 models with the full housing, I drilled my seatstay stops out and ran the cable through them instead of zip ties next to them...probably voided any warranty.

Always open to solutions!
Not a shop wrench, but not exactly out of my league when working on my bike. I had to correct several things the shop messed up on the original build.

I didn't seem to find who to contact directly at Giant on the website. The shop I bought the bike at wasn't even close to helpful the last go 'round. When I took it to the second shop, I was told the rep recalled my situation, and that I should only try claims through the shop I bought it at.

I think things may have been different if I were visiting your shop GG.
If you are getting nowhere with your local rep, try to talk to the guys in the service dep't at Giant USA. I'm at home right now, and don't remember they're number, but I do remember that they're located in Newbury Park, California. They're number isn't published, but you can look it up (your local shop probably won't give it out)

Explain to them your ongoing frustration both with the bicycle, and with the lack of solutions through your reps and your local shops. It's nice to mention the amount of money it has cost you to try to get the bike to function properly, in your search for an end to the ghost shifting. Also mention your worry about going through another season of constant frustrations. It's no fun when you can't even enjoy a bike that you paid a pretty good dollar for.

They prefer that you deal with your LBS, but that's assuming that the shop is representing them well. If the shop or rep is not helping, they wouldn't mind hearing about it. When you get through talk with the service/warrantee guys and remember...be nice to them, and they'll be nice to you. Explain the problem, what you've tried to solve it, and the ongoing frustration then hope for the best.
 

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Gear Grinder said:
If you are getting nowhere with your local rep, try to talk to the guys in the service dep't at Giant USA. I'm at home right now, and don't remember they're number, but I do remember that they're located in Newbury Park, California. They're number isn't published, but you can look it up (your local shop probably won't give it out)

Explain to them your ongoing frustration both with the bicycle, and with the lack of solutions through your reps and your local shops. It's nice to mention the amount of money it has cost you to try to get the bike to function properly, in your search for an end to the ghost shifting. Also mention your worry about going through another season of constant frustrations. It's no fun when you can't even enjoy a bike that you paid a pretty good dollar for.

They prefer that you deal with your LBS, but that's assuming that the shop is representing them well. If the shop or rep is not helping, they wouldn't mind hearing about it. When you get through talk with the service/warrantee guys and remember...be nice to them, and they'll be nice to you. Explain the problem, what you've tried to solve it, and the ongoing frustration then hope for the best.
GG it looks like you live in Canada. Did this happen while dealing with Giant Canada?

It also appears from your posts that you own or work at a shop in Canada?

Am I right?
 

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They did for me. Had an 02 NRS 2 with the ghost shifting. Left my bike at the shop. The rep came in. I got a new 04 NRS1 Frame.

This took a bunch of complaining on my part but it got done. I didn't pay $1500 for a bike that ghost shifts. I knew it was a problem and would not back down.

This is possible people!

ILxcMTNbiker said:
Do not want to argue with you, but just call the warranty guys at Giant USA and they will tell you that they do not and have never warrantied a NRS frame for the SOLE purpose of the ghost shifting problem. Sorry but that is the truth.
 

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04 NRS differences

Just to clarify the slight differences that giant did between the '02-'03 NRS's.First the cable stops are not cable stops but just cable guides. So they want you to run a full length cable housing from top tube to derailer. Also if you are having some ghost shifting problem with the 04 might need to change the housing to 5mm housing. The guides seem to support the larger housing cause my 4mm housing slides in the guides very easilyand looks small. Maybe two tie wraps on each side of one guide might work.(still evauluating the last part cause it was the maiden ride today) Next the rear triangle is shorter, I had to shorten my chain by a couple of links. Also the tubes on the seat and chain stay are different. Last you're gonna need a new Fr. Der cause the top swings clamp wants to go around the weld for the bottem bracket. So a bottem swing is in order. Hope this helps a bit better.

On my '02 the cable housing worked like a charm. It might be possible that when you open up the cable stops to big and the housing is too free it still cause ghost shifting. My setup liked the housing in one spot. Move it closer to the top tube or to the rear der and itwould act up all day.
 
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