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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
well cracked my '03 Axel Comp on RA (weakness of 2003 models) and now im considering which fork to buy. now i borowed Marzocchi Drop Off 2 and installed on my XtC 4 frame. it has 130 mm of travel, it maybe too much for me but i dont really care cuse i do some big s**t (stairs and gaps, but no flats). second fork is Manitou Black Elite 100/Black Platinum. i think its weaker and more expensive. now im affraid of RA. how do you think, which 1 is better?
 

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well the Giant XTC is an XC frame, so if you're doing big drops/jumps on it, thats likley going to break next. So my advice would be to go with the black, they fixed the arch problem for 2004, and the plantium is an excellent fork. And I wouldnt put more then 100mm on your xtc frame anyways.
 

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"El Whatever"
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I back up that....

130mm is overkill for the XTC....

Why don't you sell the reamaining parts and get a Warp or a VT. maybe an AC will suit you best....

I would sell the frame. Get a Giant Warp DS2 and fit the old disc brakes to it. You will need a new fork anyway but you can install easily a 130mm fork on the Wraps with no remorse. It will handle your drops much better than the XTC.... or are you trying to warrant the frame?? That's not fair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
well thats true but.. i dont do anythink waht would kill frame so fork like this will be fine as well. why i need such a strong fork? mainly for bails, cuse when i will bail i wont bust that fork (im not a kamikaze). Black i think is weaker fork. besides, now im ridin with Drop Off 2 and it seems bottomless because of SSV (love it). and theres max 100 mm of travel that ive used so i have higher bike front ant 30 mm of travel in a reserve :) oh yeah and o dont think that smooth stairsets will kill my frame. but Black and RA may die..
 

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"El Whatever"
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Then the Drop is fine...

Seems you have the answer...

The Drop Off is intended for that. The Black is more XC, for riding wheels stuck to the floor.

Let me know how the DropOff goes on the climbs.... I'm rather interested on that fork (I have a Giant Warp but I don't like the Axel too much, it works, it does fine but leave you beggin for more).

Would you (or your friend) sell the Drop Off II??? Is it '03 or '04?? Adjustments?? How long the steerer is??

Sorry for all the questions... thanks
 

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Oh to be young and foolish. FYI, smooth or not, your frame is not made for the type of riding you are doing. Sooner or later it will break, it is not if, but when. If you want to stay with a hardtail, you should get an urban oriented hardtail. That frame is designed for an 80mm fork, putting a 130 mm is like taking a Honda S2000 and putting Super Swampers on it. Reguardless of what you think, you are abusing that frame.

I can see it now, in a couple of months there will be a post. Giant XTC is a piece of S*it. I was just riding along and I heard a bang. When I looked down the frame had cracked at the bottom bracket. I took it to the shop I bought it and they said Giant won't warrantee it because I have a 130mm fork on it. Can you believe those pricks??!!! I explained I don't ride it hard but they won't listen, what should I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
oh yeah easy to say for you "XtC is crap so you sell it and buy well, umm Banshee Morphine".. first of all, i mainly ride my fav singletracks with some bumps and few jumps (up to 1 feet). secondly, stairsets are just for fun however i dont want to snap my fork doing it. thirdly, if i do SMOOTH stairs and gaps ir wont break! i know that riders like you do nothing and it breaks but ive been ridin with Axel so f**kin hardly that crack on RA occures after almost a year of riding. besides Answer admited that 2003 fork have problems with RA. and one more think is that i have stock 03 XtC 4 parts combination and it holds my riding style easily and as i understand frame MUST be stronger than parts (except Axel cuse no 1 knew about all the cracks and breakages that will occur on most of 2003 models).
thanks for the help ive choose Drop Off 2 cuse its so damn smooth on first inches of travel and so stiff on next inches that i just love it. besides if i will buy another frame (stronger than XtC i think) and i will do some bigger stuff than it will fit it anyway so go Drop Off ;)
Warp2003: i bought my firends '04 Drop Off 2 and i cant really say how it clims cuse i push my bike uphill :) but its possible to climb if bike's front wont be too high for you. it has air preload (if i pump up to 5 bars on both sides fork is on lockout) and internal rebound (trying to figure it out how it can be adjusted). awesome fork i think
 

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Could you please write you response in English, because frankly it was so garbled it was not understandable. I was able to get the part about you saying that people were calling your XTC crap, which nobody did. We said that it was not the right bike for what you are doing. There is a big difference.
 

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"El Whatever"
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Chill up you guys!!!

This is clearly a misunderstanding...

Team ... I also thought you were using your bike to do sick stuff like 3-4 footers and stairs... and definitively the XtC would not take it.

Unfortunatley there are lots of FELONS (cause they cannot be called other way) who use XC frames to do jump park stunts or crazy downhill and this damages us all. Companies have to beef up bikes that could be lighter 'cos these guys. The price tag goes hundreds dollars over just because of this. Companies have to make up for the losses these morons make 'cos they break a frame and then call the bike maker saying "I was JRA when the frame snapped in two". Bike company has to warrant the frame and guess who pays for it... the rest of the folks who use correctly their frames and this goes to components too.

If folks continue doing this frame prices will go to the stratosphere and bikes will weigh tons... not to mention some bike makers will reduce their offer of available mid-low price models (which are the core of the sales and the core of riders)

It comes down to us to erradicate these kind of dudes who are harming the bike industry.

Don't take it personally and no, your Xtc is no crap at all. too bad you bought the fork... I would've liked buy it myself....hehe...
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
:) i think you wouldnt because i live in eastern europe and i dont have big choice here. we have few LBS but theyre quite small. best hardtail - XtC or YZ 0 (this year's). no fork choice (even rigid), no disc brakes, no nothing. why? because no one will buy it cause no one needs it.. :( my buddy ownes that store so i said to him: maybe i should sell my frame and take smth from YZ.. he said: w.tf, my friend rides '99 Giant MCM Carbon, doing up to 4 ft drops (usually) and the frame is fine. do what you want and if you break it i will warrant it.. ok, ive starded doing small drops (1-2 ft) very smoothly. then ive done some bigger drops (quite smooth). then i found 5 ft drop to flat. on first attempt i stayed on my bike but it was crappy landing. on second attempt i bailed and busted my BB. then i decided that drops to flat are evil :) and now if i DO smth it must be very smooth.
 

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I'm feeling dirty, you?
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I'm a "FELON"... I 'free'ride my 100m-forked XC bike on trails I find, I love going uphill as well as downhill, I tackle jumps I know I can handle and not cause my wheels to explode, I don't use my bike as a bashguard, I use my XC bike for DJing, but there's so little (about 2 hours per 3 months) that if the frame failed it won't look obvious.

But team-It sticking a fork if too much travel for the frame is something I will never risk, not only is it obvious to warranty-people and mess with the geometry and handling but mainly because you stress the frame everytime you ride the bike. Whether it be tackling a new line or a casual commute, the frame will be stressed overtime everytime. For me the frame get stressed when I miss a jump or drop, but for your case every ride.

If only every manufacturer does what Orange does, state clearly on their website: intended use and fork travel limit.

Here's an example for their E8 XC bike, and their website also provides above-average detail on their bikes, which is a nice and reassuring thing.
Here's how the above pic reads:
Orange E8:
- Fork travel between 63mm (eg. SID) and 100mm.
- Not suitable for: DH, FR, BSX, 4X and DJ.
- Suitable for: Trail riding, XC racing and "Adventure".
- Acceptable for: Touring.

Too bad your Xtc isn't steel, they're more forgiving but not so forgiving that allows you to mount a double crown 190mm DH fork on a 63mm XC race frame. And also I'm not warranting exceeding travel limits at all.

I ride down stairs on my XC bike, no probs, just stay calm and roll down. Easy-peasy. 100mm is more than enough, unless you a pvssy or a fat-arse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
yeah but this fork isnt only for my XtC. i think i will buy another frame someday, P.3 may be or smth like that. i really like how Marz. going on my trails so i stayed with it. talking about geometry - well, bike's front is higher, headtube angle is another but i dont think it will break my frame. and if it breaks, i will buy another, as i said smth from Specialized maybe
 

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I'm sorry to say this but the Specialized P.bikes I've seen either have 100mm or 80mm forks, so the Marza's 130mm is not going to work on them either.

Let's see a 2004 Manitou Black Platinum has 90mm-120mm, bi-bao, it exceeds 100mm, not good. And don't think you can run the bike at whatever amount of travel then when the frame breaks, wind it down to sub-100mm, not going to work. -WARRANTY VOID-

The 2004 Marzocchi Z1 Drop-Off 2 has 130mm of non-adjustable travel, even worse. -WARRANTY VOID-

I'm usually a RockShox guy, but have a look at this deal.
Supergo is offering a Manitou Skareb Elite with 100mm of air-sprung goodness at a measly 3.2lb (claimed weight). $224.98 !
Supergo link of the fork on offer:
http://www.supergo.com/profile.cfm?LPROD_ID=25344&lsubcat_id=1808&lcat_id=7604&referpage=
Info from Manitou:
http://www.answerproducts.com/items.asp?deptid=1&itemid=15
Trust me, a 100mm XC fork set up right for you, is heaps better than a 150mm FR fork set up for someone else.

Here's another silly MTBiker thinking of exceeding travel limits (really silly!):
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=35546

You may snap spokes and endo, you may get ejected for not setting up your stable platform right or you may roll the tyre off the bead for a too low pressure and all to get is scratches and scrapes. But smashing your jaw off when the headtube junction shearing off as you fall between the two broken parts, that's a risk I'll never take.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
as i said i wont be using more than 100 mm cuse SSV wont let me. only problem i see is that headtube angle will change. but hey - Skareb has long skirts on its crown and it has 100 mm of travel. so are you sure that lenght from bearing to dropout will differ very much? i dont. besides i have XtC 4 with 6061 alu, not the 6013. mine has much thicker sidewalls and is heavyer. and one more thing - i dont care about anything. not in good mode now :(
 

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I'm feeling dirty, you?
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team-lt said:
as i said i wont be using more than 100 mm cuse SSV wont let me. only problem i see is that headtube angle will change. but hey - Skareb has long skirts on its crown and it has 100 mm of travel. so are you sure that lenght from bearing to dropout will differ very much? i dont. besides i have XtC 4 with 6061 alu, not the 6013. mine has much thicker sidewalls and is heavyer. and one more thing - i dont care about anything. not in good mode now :(
You just want to hear what you want to hear, which is us to say that it is okay to use the 130mm Marzocchi on your Xtc.
No, I stay steadfast and say do not continue to use the Marzocchi on your Xtc.
Again Giant will not grant your warranty clearly because you run a fork with the potential to exeed 100mm. They cannot trust that you've been running the fork sub-100mm, for example there's not way you can get away with running a Fox TALAS 85mm-125mm on a Ellsworth Truth which has a limit on 80mm-105mm, exceeding these limitations you will void the warranty no doubt.

Your friend with MCM Carbon, he's probably running the correct compatibale components on, so the thrashing he does would stress the frame constantly as you would with the wrong travel forks.

Fix up, look sharp, keep it real.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
ok, its not about 130 mm travel. imagine this - if for example Manitou Skareb Elite has 100 travel (stanchions outside will be at least 100 mm long), casting i think is quite the same and the main thing - it has heigh and long skirts. so as i said (forget about travel now) - distance between top of crown and dropout will differ not su much, 1 inch maybe (personally i think less). so, head angle will be pretty the same. but dont talk about warrantu again - i know that they will be looking at the travel first. but firstly, i bought it from my LBS and its owner is my buddy. he will warrant that frame. but even if he wouldnt - i will throw it away. oh jus t remembered - whats up with Trek Bruisers? almost everyone puts an it about 130 mm of travel when it has 70.0 degree angle with stock rigid fork when XtC has 71.0 with 80 mm suspension fork. yeah, it differs but not su much
 

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team-lt said:
ok, its not about 130 mm travel. imagine this - if for example Manitou Skareb Elite has 100 travel (stanchions outside will be at least 100 mm long), casting i think is quite the same and the main thing - it has heigh and long skirts. so as i said (forget about travel now) - distance between top of crown and dropout will differ not su much, 1 inch maybe (personally i think less). so, head angle will be pretty the same. but dont talk about warrantu again - i know that they will be looking at the travel first. but firstly, i bought it from my LBS and its owner is my buddy. he will warrant that frame. but even if he wouldnt - i will throw it away. oh jus t remembered - whats up with Trek Bruisers? almost everyone puts an it about 130 mm of travel when it has 70.0 degree angle with stock rigid fork when XtC has 71.0 with 80 mm suspension fork. yeah, it differs but not su much
"almost everyone" puts an it about 130 mm of travel, who is almost everyone?, name at least 5 people that run a production Bruiser One or Two with a 130mm fork.
The Bruiser bikes are heavy-duty DJ-ish bikes so they are designed with a more vertical fork angle.

The point is that bikes are designed for fork travel with very specific limits, ok forget handling issues, but running the wrong travel, you'll be surprised how much more stress is placed on the bike.
Do Not Exceed the Bike's Limits


Not everyone builds bikes like this Tank Flamingo "XC"

Seriously you're not going to run a Manitou Sherman on this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
seen on pinkbike many times (and few somewhere else, dont remember, but i DO remember that ive seen them with 130 mm). but please tell me, just dont think about the travel, if distance between dropout and top of the crown on Skareb Elite 100 and Drop Off 2 differs at half an inch, will be there MUCH bigger stress on my frame when runing Marz.?
i really know that i wont exceed more than 100 mm of travel when riding my trails. maybe you cant tell me why that stress is bigger? i dont really understand
 

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team-lt said:
seen on pinkbike many times (and few somewhere else, dont remember, but i DO remember that ive seen them with 130 mm). but please tell me, just dont think about the travel, if distance between dropout and top of the crown on Skareb Elite 100 and Drop Off 2 differs at half an inch, will be there MUCH bigger stress on my frame when runing Marz.?
i really know that i wont exceed more than 100 mm of travel when riding my trails. maybe you cant tell me why that stress is bigger? i dont really understand
You mean this bike...

Aneurysm from Gve, Sweden, his/her P.3 with a 2002 Marzocchi Dirt Jumper III.
Axle-to-Crown:
2002 Dirt Jumper III: 130mm travel- 518mm, 110mm travel- 498mm
OEM Marzocchi 105mm travel fork (eg. EXR Comp on the P.2): 478mm
Drop-off Comp (the one on your bike): 130mm travel- 518mm, 110mm travel- 498mm
RockShox Duke Race 100mm: ~470mm

Keep in mind that every 10mm increase in travel up front is roughly 1º slacker headtube angle.

What I can fault Manitou for is the clear lack of technical information for their forks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
f**k it, ive been thinking all day and i think i need new frame. i WANT to do drops and sh*t but i cant cuse i have XtC. and i dont want to get Black Elite 100 cuse my frame will be the same and i hate it. the worst thing is that i live in eastern europe and i dont have any choice. no forks, no frames, no nothing :( :mad: have you ever heard about Duncon?
http://duncon.com/uk/products.html
what do you think about Pitbull and Amstaff? buddy has Pitbull, looks strong..
 
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