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mtn hack said:
Useless post. How about a link? The last I heard, HS doesn't play well with 575s either? They don't have tabs, right?
I think he might be eluding that DW(and most suspension designs) are optimized to ride the best in the middle ring(32ish), and Hammershit never rides in a middle ring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I have seen a couple non tab frames with the Schmidt. Pinkbike has a recent write up on a Specialized wherein an adapter was held in place using the grooves on the BB cup, but it was specific to the Specialized... I think. I have also seen an MRP adapter that was slightly modified, as was the drive-side face of the bottom bracket on the frame... about 2.5mm was shaved to get the width to 68mm. The adapter just "happened" to wedge against areas of the frame the prevented it from slipping. Now, I know there must be a non-rotating adapter out there that would mount over the BB cup to prevent rotation for Shimano, SRAM... and if not, I think I need to buy a milling or CNC machince...

So, assume fit/slip/rotation issues could be resolved with ISCG adapter mods, what other issues would exist with a DW Turner? Chain line should be ok... cable routing... Come one... no one here has tried this yet...
 

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gnuH
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mtn hack said:
Useless post. How about a link? The last I heard, HS doesn't play well with 575s either? They don't have tabs, right?
That is my point! The Spot doesn't have tabs either, and I was merely pointing out that others with bikes without tabs have had some success.

I did not have time last night to provide a link, so take a chill pill.
 

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FleshwoundGravityResearch
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Dusty Bottoms said:
I think he might be eluding that DW(and most suspension designs) are optimized to ride the best in the middle ring(32ish), and Hammershit never rides in a middle ring.
Oh. Well then that really would have been a useless post.

What DW was saying in his blog was that ALL suspension systems are affected by the chain angle. No system will be optimized in all combinations using the Hammerschmidt, but my guess is, if you start with an inferior suspension design, the HS isn't going to help anything.

Here is the important section of DW's explanation:
OK, now for the tie in! The amount of anti-squat that a suspension can develop is based on (among other things) the angle of the ground that the bike is riding on and the angle of the chainline. It just so happens that as a bike is climbing a hill, the amount of anti-squat drops because the direction of gravity in relation to the bike changes. What this means is that if you are pedalling along in your 32-18 on flat ground and have just the right amount of anti-squat, then start to climb a steep hill, say 15 degrees or so, the amount of anti-squat is going to lessen. It just so happens that moving the chainline downward, say like if you selected your 22T cog, increases anti-squat. In an Apollo 13 like turn of events, people actually use their 22T cog when they climb hills as steep as 15 degrees (you basically have to). The two changing anti-squat amounts balance out, leaving the rider with very similar riding characteristics while climbing in the granny and riding on the flat in the middle ring.

Edit:

kiwi : sorry if I came off abrasively initially. This post probably sounds worse. I read Dusty's take on what you were saying when I posted this. So this doesn't apply to you, but to others that have made the claim that Dusty relayed.
 

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A Hammerschmidt will not work with a ISCG adapter that is sandwiched between the frame and BB cup. As an experiment at the shop I gave it a go and it rotated in overdrive, just like Sram said it would. I personally have not seen any ISCG adapters that rely on set screws or the like to hold them in place, and even if you happened to find one I would not trust it.

I'm actually riding that Enduro that we featured on Pink. Their splined ISCG adapter is very clever and the Hammerschmidt (I have one mounted on it as we speak) runs very smooth on it. Smoother in fact than some "factory faced" welded ISCG tab'd bikes that I've tried HS on.

I know that I have seen a Spot w/ ISCG tabs that was made for a rider, although said rider was a lot more deserving than any of us punters. Never hurts to ask them though, right?

At the risk of receiving a scolding from any forum-engineers, here is how I made a Hammerschmidt work on my non-ISCG Remedy frame....
Grey Metal Steel Composite material Iron


Disclaimer: This Remedy frame was surplus to me, nothing to loose!

I used a ISCG adapter that had a lot of extra material between the mounting holes, some are trimmed right down. I had to remove some material for the HS cable anchor to move freely. All I used was a round hacksaw blade and a file, cleaned it up pretty nice. The BB shell in my Remedy was 68 mm... but I took in to account the width of the adapters mounting surface and added a 2 mm spacer so that once it was mounted it measured out to 73 mm. I then orientated the adapter correctly and held it in place via a old BB I had kicking about. I made sure I got a good aluminum welder to do the job, it's held on in place by the two welds you can see in the picture, there isn't a third under the BB shell.
I was confident that everything would sit straight post welding and it did. I have not even had to face the ISCG tabs yet (although I do plan to). I have 6 or 7 months on it so far, no issues whatsoever.

Flame on!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks KaKah... great post!!!

The splined adapter has to be the way to go so that the glut of non-tabed frames can make use of existing, and to-be, aftermarket items like the HS. I for one have no desire to sell by 09 Spot, but I would spend the money on an HS today if an well crafted solution existed.
 

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idrivefun said:
Thanks KaKah... great post!!!

The splined adapter has to be the way to go so that the glut of non-tabed frames can make use of existing, and to-be, aftermarket items like the HS. I for one have no desire to sell by 09 Spot, but I would spend the money on an HS today if an well crafted solution existed.
I am surprised that some enterprising people have not come up with an adapter that would allow the use of HS (and whatever else is coming out) with a non-tabbed frame. I'm not going to lie, I don't have the know how to get'r done, but I'm sure someone does. Maybe an adapter that uses the BB drain hole/cable guide hole to hold it in place. It's easy enough to quickly add one of those to any frame that may not have one. But again, I wouldn't know if a single M6 screw combined with the BB cup would hold it in place.

People get so caught up in wether their bike's DW/Maestro/VPP ect.. bikes will work with the HS system, yet half those riders have a 32t big ring and the other half have 42t big rings and so on. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are DW bikes out there that have single rings, two chainrings, and three chainrings, and no one seems so concerned about how their suspension is working while in each one of those respective rings.
Whatever bike you have, it will work just fine with a Hammerscmidt on it.

Then again I used to ride a Pro-Flex and liked it so WTF do I know:D
 

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trail fairy
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As I understood it DT would add ISCG to ya frame if ya wanted it, but this would be custom I guess, unless things have since changed.
That said even though most bikes are optimised around the middle ring, this is only because until HS that's all that was available.

More and more manufactures will design and optimise for HS in the trail and AM/ FR ranges as time goes on, hopefully DW and Turners will be able to tune for this as well, personally I would like HS on a Spot or RFX.

There is this option as well, the Adaptatron haha :D
I don't think it is Specilised specific I may be wrong but this sits in the grooves of the BB still not the best plan imo but hey if it works maybe an option, would still rather have ISCG though not sure I would trust this!

Continuing with the robot trend, here is the Adaptatron, which allows you to use a guide or HammerSchmidt
Continuing with the robot trend, here is the Adaptatron, which allows you to use a guide or HammerSchmidt

The Adaptatron fits snugly onto splines around the BB shell
The Adaptatron fits snugly onto splines around the BB shell
 

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trailadvent said:
As I understood it DT would add ISCG to ya frame if ya wanted it, but this would be custom I guess, unless things have since changed.
That said even though most bikes are optimised around the middle ring, this is only because until HS that's all that was available.

More and more manufactures will design and optimise for HS in the trail and AM/ FR ranges as time goes on, hopefully DW and Turners will be able to tune for this as well, personally I would like HS on a Spot or RFX.

There is this option as well, the Adaptatron haha :D
I don't think it is Specilised specific I may be wrong but this sits in the grooves of the BB still not the best plan imo but hey if it works maybe an option, would still rather have ISCG though not sure I would trust this!

Continuing with the robot trend, here is the Adaptatron, which allows you to use a guide or HammerSchmidt
Continuing with the robot trend, here is the Adaptatron, which allows you to use a guide or HammerSchmidt

The Adaptatron fits snugly onto splines around the BB shell
The Adaptatron fits snugly onto splines around the BB shell
Hey, you stealing my pics?:smilewinkgrin:

As far as trusting the "adaptatron", it's solid as hell. I've got two hard months on the bike in the pictures and there have been no ISCG adapter related issues. I had two concerns: the first was any noise/creaking. There is none, it's been quiet despite rain and mud and pressure washes. The second was removal after it had been on for some time. The tolerances ect. seem fine as it slides right off, even after months of use (Devinci's ISCG adapter is another story...)

This particular version is only found on the Specialized, although Devinici and possibly others have used something similar.

This system makes so much sense to me. Use it if you want, or leave it off if you want. I hope it is not patent protected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Nice... so the Adaptatron is machined to fit over the HS BB? This would make it bike manufacturer independent, correct?

So, after googling the Adaptatron I have bupkis... where would I be able to buy one?
 

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trail fairy
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KaKah! said:
Hey, you stealing my pics?:smilewinkgrin:

As far as trusting the "adaptatron", it's solid as hell. I've got two hard months on the bike in the pictures and there have been no ISCG adapter related issues. I had two concerns: the first was any noise/creaking. There is none, it's been quiet despite rain and mud and pressure washes. The second was removal after it had been on for some time. The tolerances ect. seem fine as it slides right off, even after months of use (Devinci's ISCG adapter is another story...)

This particular version is only found on the Specialized, although Devinici and possibly others have used something similar.

This system makes so much sense to me. Use it if you want, or leave it off if you want. I hope it is not patent protected.
Haha no worries, ya post inspired me to tack them down as I read that back a few months ago and sort of filed it away:thumbsup:

Great to hear its worked out well, that's huge, and in all conditions even better, cheers.

I'm a big fan of HS and I really think for the trail rider and AM FR rider this is the future now and for some time, even people I never thought would like it are loving it here. just makes perfect sense to me for a normal dual ring cowboy to pony up on :thumbsup:

That SC thread is interesting as well must be an older SC though as the newer Nomads have ISCG.

The Adaptatron this solve my issues for my future trail bike as it was a definite put off not being able to run an HS on a frame choice.
 

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idrivefun said:
Nice... so the Adaptatron is machined to fit over the HS BB? This would make it bike manufacturer independent, correct?

So, after googling the Adaptatron I have bupkis... where would I be able to buy one?
The Adaptatron from Specialized will not work on any other bike unfortunately. It goes in the same place as any other ISCG adapter (as well as takes it from 68 to 73 mm exactly) but will only fit those splines that are shown in the picture.
 

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trail fairy
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KaKah! said:
The Adaptatron from Specialized will not work on any other bike unfortunately. It goes in the same place as any other ISCG adapter (as well as takes it from 68 to 73 mm exactly) but will only fit those splines that are shown in the picture.
I hear ya on that Specialised only to date!

But maybe others will make there own adaptatron, hardly worth a Patent but Specialised who knows :D

That said the only reason I think from mem that Sram didn't make these themselves as I'm sure it did come up was that unless the BB downtube and chains stays were designed to take the forces that the HS or ISCG tabs with a bash put on those area's then frames may not be up to it and probably best the frame makers make that call.

Hence Specilised doing there thing, a smart call!

Though seems slightly backward since there alloy Enduro frame has ISCG and the lightweight carbon does not but adds wieght with an adapatron and BB interface with a percieved heavy HS, lol I digress but couldn't resist :D
 
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