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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
On page 1 of a 4-page discussion regarding the "Greens Lick Sabotage", Mike Brown asked for RECOMMENDATIONS for Greens Lick work. On page 3 of that thread, redriderbb again asks for INPUT and for HELP with the many work sessions that are organized for Bent Creek trails. Most of the responses were along the lines of 'don't touch this perfect trail', 'don't do it that way', or 'there are better ways to do it'. So let's hear HOW to do it. Let's hear the better ways--this thread is inviting constructive suggestions for work on an area favorite trail...

Again, the land manager (USFS) is concerned with the level of emergency extractions from Greens Lick trail. Ways to reduce extractions include closing the trail, reducing user speed, working toward more experienced users, etc. The land manager also wants a trail that is not a threat to adjacent resources--read: minimum erosion. What should the land manager and groups like PAS, who organize work days on this and other area trails, be doing to this trail? Should we continue to insist that the world is run by those who show up?

Please add to this list of land manager goals and of possible work options with regard to Greens Lick and other trails...

Best regards (and thanks in advance for your positive input!). Don't everyone start singing Billy Joel's "Just the Way You Are" at the same time!

TrailZen
 

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For what its worth...

The last time I rode the trail I noticed the amount of long, straight sections. This gives riders a sense that they don't need to be on the brakes and might end up riding over their heads at speeds much higher than they are used too, possibly leading to the crashes mentioned. Turns force people to control speed and the overall pace of the trail would be reduced and subsequently might notice less crashes and rescue situations... More turns, thats all I can think of that would help reduce the hazards and help people keep in control. But for those who know how to do it good, more turns wouldn't really slow you down, but it might help keep the goobers from getting hurt. ;)
 

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Put the "filter" features where they can be seen

The rock garden at the top of the trail might "give riders and idea what to expect", except that the next 1/2 mile of trail is nothing like it. It's FAST & flowy through there, then WHAM!, you hit the lower rock gardens & new berms. I've ridden Green's Lick only 6-8 times since it was built, and only once since the new work (I usually ride in Dupont or "Pisgah proper", but I was quite surprised by the new features (and I had been told to expect them).

The recently added features seemed (to me anyway) to hide behind the horizon line of the grade dips, then appear suddenly & at the last minute. If you want to slow people down, you need to put features where they can see them coming and react in time. As for the wisdom of "bombing down", I'd gotten a pretty good feel for what was around the next bend over my half dozen rides. The issue isn't the technicality, per se, it's that said technical sections are largely blind from above, and totally out of character with the rest of the trail.
 

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This is ridiculous. There already is a medium for discussing this and it is called PAS. If you want to contribute come out.

I rode Green's Lick yesterday and it is way more dangerous now than when the work was originally completed. As said multiple times in the other thread, there was adequate warning of the upcoming rock work but it was removed.
 

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I agree with Drew. If you want to have input, come to meetings and work days. Otherwise, your input will be only considered through the interpretation of others.
A few notes, however: we cannot vary greatly from the orignal trail alignment. To do so would require the following:
1) Environmental assesments approved by USFS.
2) Archaelogical surverys approved by USFS.
3) Wildlife surveys approved by USFS.
These things cost thousands of dollars- if we wanted to play with the alignment of this entire trail, think in excesss of 20,000 dollars. The USFS ain't going to foot this bill. We'd have to do it ourselves. If anybody wants to write that check, then we could look at changing aligment.
Trying to help paint the bigger picture,
Mike
 

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A little perspective

Things are always more complicated than they seem on the surface and Mike knows what he is talking about.
The trail work on Greens lick will take 2-3 years to mature and season then judgement can be passed
Personnally i would prefer to go up Greens Lick as it suits me and my bike better..
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
This is ridiculous?

gtdrew said:
This is ridiculous. There already is a medium for discussing this and it is called PAS. If you want to contribute come out.

I rode Green's Lick yesterday and it is way more dangerous now than when the work was originally completed. As said multiple times in the other thread, there was adequate warning of the upcoming rock work but it was removed.
If by referring to this thread as ridiculous you mean that an MTBR thread cannot be used as a serious forum for discussion, perhaps you're correct. Several people are on record as considering the forums a good source of hot air... I believe, however, that many more voices can be heard via an MTBR forum than at a PAS meeting or at a trail work session. Even those who somehow can ignore PAS meetings and work dates can find a few minutes to hit various threads here, so why not offer a thread for CONSTRUCTIVE recommendations? Who knows--the thread might even draw a comment or two worth consideration...

Mike, you're correct in that suggestions made here are subject to interpretation by the readers, but a writer who is clear and concise in his/her suggestions will be communicating with PAS, something s/he may not otherwise do... Thanks for "painting the bigger picture", even though you say you agree with Drew, in explaining to tcookson and motomike why we cannot deviate from the existing trail corridor. I'm sure that after reading your quick explanation of the USFS corridor evaluation process, they will understand why some extended straight-line trail segments are on Greens Lick. They are correct, however, in that some meander might be added through the use of gateways while staying in the existing corridor...

I'm not claiming to have a magic bullet, but I'm tired of reading extended whine sessions, especially by people who haven't even seen or ridden the trail they're griping about. I honestly believe that PAS can get some constructive feedback via an MTBR thread, and I originated this thread (in response to a comment on the Greenslick Sabotage thread) as a possible method of collecting that feedback...

Drew, with regard to your "If you want to contribute come out" comment, I'm there! I've been doing volunteer trail maintenance and construction for two decades. I've been a PAS member since the group's inception, I was a SORBA member years before PAS was formed, and have been an IMBA member much longer than that... In the mid- to late-'90s, my trail volunteer time exceeded 150 hours per year; I've contributed time to both the District and Dupont, as well as to projects out of state. I want those hours, however, to stay on the ground--few things whiz me off more than returning to a work site to find a project compromised.

With that in mind, I'm again asking for constructive comments. This thread isn't for "...don't do it that way!", but for "...have we considered..." instead.

Best regards,
TrailZen
 

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I agree that the trail is more dangerous now than when we did the work on ntd. Rode it for the first time today since the day after the work and the middle rock armoring is rough. I'm not being critical as this was my section and still don't think it's dangerous, just more so. I didn't stop (having too much fun) to discern if it was not holding up or if it's being dismantled and don't know if I could tell anyway. I like the top filter even w/out the second feature and I think the new berms are better now, but are still holding a lot of water (rained a lot last night apparently).
A corral at the very top on the right may be in order soon as I can see folks riding over that hump to avoid the rock filter.
Also, I guess the forest service has shut down the bottom section of Ledford in an ugly way. Dropping live trees to block a trailhead AND no signage???????????
I don't get it.
 

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I saw those trees down on Thursday- that's a non-system trail. Check out your map. Periodically, the Expiremental Forest staff makes an effort to close non-system trails. It's what it is, eventually it all comes around.
 

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"I believe, however, that many more voices can be heard via an MTBR forum than at a PAS meeting or at a trail work session. Even those who somehow can ignore PAS meetings and work dates can find a few minutes to hit various threads here, so why not offer a thread for CONSTRUCTIVE recommendations? Who knows--the thread might even draw a comment or two worth consideration."

MTBr has been on the web since 1995 and, in my opinion, set the standard for all other bike related forum sites (excluding Shel Brown's) that followed. Millions of people have posted or lurked here. The folk's with MTBr worked hard to accommodate the sport's evolution and expanded it's specialized forum selections (based on user requests) and North Carolina was one of the initial few to receive an individual category in the regional section. I recall when there was only six to choose from.

'nuff on that subject?

Those who are able to make PAS & UP-State SORBA meetings or trail work day are always welcomed to offer suggestions about local trails! I also like hearing opinions from the folk's in Illinois/Florida/Ohio/England/Canada/China/Gaston County/etc. who plan their vacations and weekend excursions around riding WNC.

:thumbsup:

I know they'd like to see some photos.

Group Effort: Anyone here recall the "Logo War"? Look at the bottom of your page - one of these things is not like the other.
 

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gtdrew said:
This is ridiculous. There already is a medium for discussing this and it is called PAS. If you want to contribute come out.

So someone asks for input, I give input, then get flamed for giving input. You guys can all kiss my @$$. Good luck building trail. It's no wonder you don't get more participation at SORBA meetings. God forbid is some fresh blood did actually show up, what would you ***** about then?
 

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M-U-M said:
Those who are able to make PAS SORBA meetings
or trail work days are welcome to offer suggestions about local trails!

I also like hearing opinions from the folk's in
Illinois/Florida/Ohio/England/Canada/China/Gaston County/etc.
who plan their vacations and weekend excursions around riding WNC.

:thumbsup:
You forgot Tennessee :cryin:
 

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"Those who are able to make PAS & UP-State SORBA meetings or trail work day are always welcomed to offer suggestions about local trails!"

TC: Relax. Have a sandwich. I'm going on the river tomorrow. Every now & then - we all need to take a "slow float".
 

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My post from the other thread:

rode Green's Lick for the first time a few days ago. FWIW it was still awesome for me as a first timer. One of the funniest rides I've ever done. The rocks and tight berms seem to do the trick by forcing you to slow down where I could see people getting ahead of themselves...*as long as you see them coming*. I think warning signs leading up to that patch would help. The first and second rock patches were nothing really (you can jump the second one), so I don't see how they would really damage anything. Just some feedback from an out-of-state first timer.
 

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I've probably ridden down Greenslick at least 75 times, so I think I'll chime in here if you guys are wanting serious ideas. My body's been broke down pretty good since early May because of a bike crash, so I haven't been able to ride the "new" trail or (more importantly) help at the work day. In retrospect, I wish I would've at least come out for moral support - maybe I could've been water boy or something. :D

Anyway, I'm guessing that really the main part that's of concern is the bottom 1/3 or so of the trail - the really high speed section? Regrettably, I have very little trail building experience, but wouldn't the addition of some nice water bars not only help prevent erosion but would sure as heck slow people down? I'm thinking of the bottom section of Bennett Gap. Or what about some nice drops like the bottom of Burnt Mountain? This way, the more advanced riders could still ride fast but everyone who couldn't handle the speed would be forced to ride slower.

Again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about but it seems like a viable solution in my head. Either that or an 8' drop at the entrance to the trail. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Several Comments...

Thanks to several folks for constructive comments/suggestions--as previously stated, I think it's better to spend computer time rather than meeting or work time to discuss some of these ideas... Just after I posted this thread, motomike and tcookson both commented on the extended straight sections. While Mike Brown has explained that we cannot deviate from the current corridor, we may be able to add some 'meander' to such segments... The comment by gixxerflier regarding the potential need for a corral to prevent tread widening at the top of Green's Lick is noted. And drkenan has pointed out that the bottom 1/3 of Green's Lick is probably where the greatest focus on speed should be made--drkenan, you've probably noticed fewer and fewer water bars on recently-built or recently-maintained trails, and for good reason. They're maintenance intensive, slick when wet, and tend to add a directional aspect to the trail segment fitted with them. When Green's Lick was first constructed, part of the USFS build criteria was that the bottom section of trail be accessible by 'gator' so Research Forest scientists could continue to access experiments along this route--that's why the lower section is wider than the top. Some meander has been added to the bottom 1/3 now. Oh, sorry to hear about the crash and hope you're back on the trail soon!

While I can't apologize for comments made by someone else, I feel that the 'ridiculous' comment was aimed at this thread rather than at tcookson's response. So, tcookson, I hope you'll reconsider and join us at some future work date or work session. I recall your saying that you usually ride Dupont or the District--we're working on Dupont July 11-13 (more detail in another thread).

And M-U-M ("I also like hearing opinions from the folk's in Illinois/Florida/Ohio/England/Canada/China/Gaston County/etc. who plan their vacations and weekend excursions around riding WNC.")--I like other opinions, too. Lots of these folks can NEVER make a PAS meeting or work date, but as you suggest that doesn't mean their ideas have no merit... Keep those cards and letters coming!

Best regards,
TrailZen
 

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I like to be challenged when I ride my bike, so the added features? gets my thumbs up. I'll probably start to ride that trail more often now.
 

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I think the destroyed upper filter should be left out. It was a great idea to put in a features that would weed out under-skilled riders. It was with the best of intentions that that feature was put in. Despite that, I think the message was lost on those who encountered it. Time, effort, and money is better spent adding or modifying other features, and here's why:

That upper feature is located on a nearly flat, wide, smooth section. It's just after a newly-installed rock garden. Upon seeing it, I wasn't sure why it was there, because the section doesn't require any armoring or speed reduction. I thought about it more and figured that it must be there to alert people of more rock gardens to come. Cool.

The upright rocks (which were vandalized) didn't register with me. Was I to expect more of them? I surely didn't need to be slowed there. I'd never seen a feature like that anywhere else in the US, and if there were to be more of those further down the trail, broken people and busted equipment would be scattered all over the trail. (I've run over rocks like that, at full-speed, and the result was not pretty).

I've been admonished for only talking about the problems, but I have to mention the problem in order to get to a potential solution. That upright-rock filter is located in a very easy section of trail. Just beyond it, in plain sight, is smooth, wide, easy trail. I don't think the purpose of the feature really registered with most riders. If people came to a trail junction and the trail appeared nasty and difficult for as far as the eye could see, they'd probably believe that the trail would continue on that way, indefinitely. Because a difficult feature was put onto an easy section of trail, it may not be providing the desired effect.

I can easily see someone going to ride over those rocks, bending a tooth or two (or worse) and wondering who had sabotaged the trail by putting chainring-bending rocks there. I could even see them thinking that some militant underground anti-MTB faction had done it with the intent of punishing bikers. And/or they might have been embarrassed by having a hard time with it and just wanted to sooth their bruised ego. Whatever.

It's also hard to imagine someone seeing anything at the start of Green's Lick that would dissuade them from continuing, especially after climbing all the way from 5-points.

Green's lick isn't a difficult trail, but it tricks people into riding too fast. It LOOKS easy. It doesn't seem to present any danger.

Signs could help a little, not for the adrenaline junkie, but maybe for those who don't WANT to get in over their heads. The number of severe injuries should be mentioned, unless that opens up a liability issue.

Narrowing of the trail could help. I do not know if this should be done with vegetation of obstacles. I would imagine that tall grass would reduce sight lines in a semi-safe way and still give safe run-off in the event of a mistake. Poison ivy could be even more effective;)

Add gentle curving to promote a slower, yet still flowy, average speed.

Reduce the size of the grade-reversals in the final section. Most people aren't good jumpers, and the apparent safe speed of that section, combined with the size of those rises means that a lot of people will get more air than they really want.

A-line type trails are sweet, but I think they require full-time medical staff at their base. I wish that wasn't the case. Any changes will result in a LOT of complaints, but for those people, there's 26 West bike park.
 

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Ben!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity.
Some of us were there and will fight alongside you to create the collective vision.
Don't get frustrated- you're still the man who made it all happen- and what happened was GOOD!
 
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