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Discussion Starter #1
https://www.facebook.com/groups/544366085666862/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/116805088338212/permalink/3376197679065587/

I'd like to hear more from people who know what happened, but it sounds like some trail closures are coming.

Keep telling me I'm wrong about monetizing and marketing local trails as part of a tourism economy. Marketing works, and people will visit your trails as if they were a product that they are entitled to. Sucks for them, never ridden there but hear there's some dedicated folks putting in real time and effort.
 

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...Keep telling me I'm wrong about monetizing and marketing local trails as part of a tourism economy. Marketing works, and people will visit your trails as if they were a product that they are entitled to. Sucks for them, never ridden there but hear there's some dedicated folks putting in real time and effort.
You're not wrong, you're absolutely right. Overselling the resource to put your trails on the public radar is an invitation to this kind of overuse and impact on trailheads and adjacent private land. And it's only going to get worse.

I've ridden at GMT multiple times and love it there. You have to put out an effort to get to the summit, and one would hope this would limit the amount of douchebaggery but apparently not.

I think there's a whole demographic that never got the memo on trail etiquette judging by the amount of skid marks and Strava lines showing up this year. Worse than I've ever seen it. GET OFF MY LAWN!!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
On the MTB riders of Vt thread, Rick Solkolov, of all people, chimes in about how sad he is about the current state of things. It would be difficult to find an individual more culpable for the current state of being than this man.

He is the original marketer of VT mtb, a condo salesman for Spruce Peak, he single- handedly turned a cool local scene with tons of volunteers and passionate riders into a product, and an amenity to his real estate sales. Before VMBA was marketing MTB in Vt, there was Rick. A fraudster, and salesman above all. This is his mess, by and large, left to fester for 15 years.
 

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I've ridden at GMT multiple times and love it there. You have to put out an effort to get to the summit, and one would hope this would limit the amount of douchebaggery but apparently not.
It's a great network and it's possible to start at a higher elevation and if you only ride the top then it's not much of a climb. But I reckon it would be silly to do that as descending all the way down Fuster and Bubba is great. Then you have to earn your way back to the top.
 

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I'd like to hear more from people who know what happened, but it sounds like some trail closures are coming.

Keep telling me I'm wrong about monetizing and marketing local trails as part of a tourism economy. Marketing works, and people will visit your trails as if they were a product that they are entitled to. Sucks for them, never ridden there but hear there's some dedicated folks putting in real time and effort.
Not sure what you mean by "monetizing" trails that are free and built and maintained on a nonprofit basis. It's pretty clear from Baatz's description what happened: bikers rode through a "closed" sign and were jerks to the landowner. How do you know they weren't local? Maybe they were fans of yours and thought "F- that 'closed' sign, I looked at the water tables this morning and those trails are rideable!"

Also, you market your trails on here all the time, so stop throwing rocks from your glass house.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
It's pretty clear from Baatz's description what happened: bikers rode through a "closed" sign and were jerks to the landowner. How do you know they weren't local?
I read what Matt wrote about them being tourists.
More of Matt's opinion...
"Matt Baatz: Applying the economic model of standardization to our trails, part of our home, was a mistake when we really need to go the opposite way and particularize them. Value them because they’re unique and reflect the overall character of the place from which they arose. For many reasons, some of which you mentioned already, we’re losing our sense of place and as a result our ability to care for where we are."
 

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I read what Matt wrote about them being tourists.
More of Matt's opinion...
"Matt Baatz: Applying the economic model of standardization to our trails, part of our home, was a mistake when we really need to go the opposite way and particularize them. Value them because they’re unique and reflect the overall character of the place from which they arose. For many reasons, some of which you mentioned already, we’re losing our sense of place and as a result our ability to care for where we are."
Oh, yeah? Point me to a direct quotation from Matt saying that he knows they were tourists.

The problem is pretty clearly one group of unidentified riders who were spectacularly rude.

Between Trailforks, Strava, Singletracks, word of mouth, and other social media exposure, how exactly do you think you're going to roll back time to some imaginary locals-only "golden age" of mtb? Ffs, Pittsfield is like ten minutes from the biggest bike park on the East coast.

It would be a lot more productive to focus on the management and sustainability of trails instead of shouting and complaining about tourists. Focus on pushing for VT to attract industries that can sustain a vibrant year-'round population at a decent standard of living. Until that happens, there's no point bitching about tourism, it just cruelly hurts and demonizes people who depend on the income because there are few other options.

Oh, and besides all that, here's Baatz is on Pittsfield:

"We’re not getting the boom effect, probably because we’re so remote and the trails are less accessible comparatively."
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Oh, yeah? Point me to a direct quotation from Matt saying that he knows they were tourists.
a couple good ones...
"Matt Baatz Not to sound like an old coot, but something went awry between the time when Mtb was centered around self sufficiency, stewardship and good will, and the current manifestation in which trails are products riders are consumers and so much is done in the name of bragging rights."

and from the other thread...."Brian Spring Matt Baatz out of state plates again?

Matt Baatz Didn’t see the vehicle but no way were they from around here."

Reading is helpful.
 

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a couple good ones...
"Matt Baatz Not to sound like an old coot, but something went awry between the time when Mtb was centered around self sufficiency, stewardship and good will, and the current manifestation in which trails are products riders are consumers and so much is done in the name of bragging rights."

and from the other thread...."Brian Spring Matt Baatz out of state plates again?

Matt Baatz Didn’t see the vehicle but no way were they from around here."

Reading is helpful.
LOL so he didn't see the plates, doesn't know who they are, but is just *assuming* they aren't "from around here."
Logical thinking is helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
LOL so he didn't see the plates, doesn't know who they are, but is just *assuming* they aren't "from around here."
Logical thinking is helpful.
The trail builder make a VERY clear, and easy to understand point. Pittsfield has no interest in being a tourist destination. Further, the threat, from the trail builder's perspective, is visitors from far away, be it Chitt Co, or NY, detached from the community, with a consumer's sense of entitlement, treating their local recreation resource as a product, and not a living, thriving trail system and surrounding environment and community. This resonates very strongly with my extensive experience as a trail user, and builder for the last 30 years, 22 in Vt.

To attempt to pervert that, or make this thread about me is dishonest.

Matt is on here occasionally. Maybe he will respond with his thought and clear up your confusion.
 

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The trail builder make a VERY clear, and easy to understand point. Pittsfield has no interest in being a tourist destination. Further, the threat, from the trail builder's perspective, is visitors from far away, be it Chitt Co, or NY, detached from the community, with a consumer's sense of entitlement, treating their local recreation resource as a product, and not a living, thriving trail system and surrounding environment and community. This resonates very strongly with my extensive experience as a trail user, and builder for the last 30 years, 22 in Vt.

To attempt to pervert that, or make this thread about me is dishonest.

Matt is on here occasionally. Maybe he will respond with his thought and clear up your confusion.
There's no confusion. You literally don't know if it was a tourist or not, you're just making it into a jumping-off point for your usual anti-tourist rants. You're not going to stop people from coming to enjoy nice trails, so all your griping about tourists is pointless and tiresome. Do you have any solutions? Anything positive to offer? Maybe finding/developing ways to encourage better stewardship and behavior? More diverse trails?

Take your broken record off the turntable, man, and play us a new song.
 

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there's no confusion. You literally don't know if it was a tourist or not, you're just making it into a jumping-off point for your usual anti-tourist rants. You're not going to stop people from coming to enjoy nice trails, so all your griping about tourists is pointless and tiresome. Do you have any solutions? Anything positive to offer? Maybe finding/developing ways to encourage better stewardship and behavior? More diverse trails?

Take your broken record off the turntable, man, and play us a new song.
x 2
 

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The trail builder make a VERY clear, and easy to understand point. Pittsfield has no interest in being a tourist destination. Further, the threat, from the trail builder's perspective, is visitors from far away, be it Chitt Co, or NY, detached from the community, with a consumer's sense of entitlement, treating their local recreation resource as a product, and not a living, thriving trail system and surrounding environment and community. This resonates very strongly with my extensive experience as a trail user, and builder for the last 30 years, 22 in Vt.

To attempt to pervert that, or make this thread about me is dishonest.

Matt is on here occasionally. Maybe he will respond with his thought and clear up your confusion.
When the VMBA trail connects and links Irish Hill to Northfield and passes 3/
Or 4 private landowners, town forest, and a private/ public school property, will you maybe realize you should not have pimped “your” network. Sleepy little spot with a nice small parking lot, used to hold six cars, now you need to tell people to park in the town square on weekends. Imagine Where they will park when everyone learns there’s a nice trail with markers leading down to Berlin Pond? Will they park along slate, Spring, along Pain Mtn? who knows but it seems obvious with that trail the bro brah KOM’s will come and block a few driveways.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
When the VMBA trail connects and links Irish Hill to Northfield....
BWahahhahahahhahah! SSphfffhahaha. A'hem. Sorry. You're clueless about local land access. Go talk the the Berlin CC about making Phil Scott's back yard into a bike park. They are already on notice about elements in Northfield starting to market and host events. To paraphrase, "We are nervous about the increased use and marketing of events and the overflow from the Shaw Center turning our community trails into a tourist destination." Mamba's experience with the 100,000 dollar north branch excavator trail has also left them....less than impressed. LOL. I'm almost done here anyway. There is an inevitability to what you say in reality, and I've always known it. Just trying to keep it at arms length until I can finish home renovations and that one last trail to complete the vision I had 13 years ago. Then I bounce with a rental and passive income that helps make the real dream come true. VT is so fuct economically. I hope to be gone in 5 years, when the trails turn into Perry Hill, and all the bro brahs are wicked stoked on my sloppy seconds. That will be LOL for me, as seen from the distance.

I still feel bad for Matt though. I hope GMT can find a way to stay "Small Town", but partnering with RRASTA seemed like the beginning of the end.
 

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BWahahhahahahhahah! SSphfffhahaha. A'hem. Sorry. You're clueless. I'm almost done here anyway. There is an inevitability to what you say in reality, and I've always known it. Just trying to keep it at arms length until I can finish home renovations and that one last trail to complete the vision I had 13 years ago. Then I bounce with a rental and passive income that helps make the real dream come true. VT is so fuct economically. I hope to be gone in 5 years, when the trails turn into Perry Hill, and all the bro brahs are wicked stoked on my sloppy seconds. That will be LOL for me, as seen from the distance.

I still feel bad for Matt though. I hope GMT can find a way to stay "Small Town", but partnering with RRASTA seemed like the beginning of the end.
Just quoting this for all those that think Dave is doing this for VT. He has no intentions to better the VT riding community. He’s only here to get his and then let it burn.
 

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Just quoting this for all those that think Dave is doing this for VT. He has no intentions to better the VT riding community. He’s only here to get his and then let it burn.
I think that should be quoted every single time he posts from now on to remind everyone that his voice is completely discredited and has no further place in discussions of Vermont mountain biking.
 

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BWahahhahahahhahah! SSphfffhahaha. A'hem. Sorry. You're clueless. I'm almost done here anyway. There is an inevitability to what you say in reality, and I've always known it. Just trying to keep it at arms length until I can finish home renovations and that one last trail to complete the vision I had 13 years ago. Then I bounce with a rental and passive income that helps make the real dream come true. VT is so fuct economically. I hope to be gone in 5 years, when the trails turn into Perry Hill, and all the bro brahs are wicked stoked on my sloppy seconds. That will be LOL for me, as seen from the distance.

I still feel bad for Matt though. I hope GMT can find a way to stay "Small Town", but partnering with RRASTA seemed like the beginning of the end.
Such a statement from a small person. A real community oriented individual that any town would look forward to having join them. Yea, right.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You folks are so hung up on me, it's like you want to date. Sorry, I'm taken boys.
You're all slightly off-topic. Everything's been fine in here until your return.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Such a statement from a small person. A real community oriented individual that any town would look forward to having join them. Yea, right.
...and it get's personal. Shocked. So what if I'm 5'6 and 3/4" It does not seem relevant. My record of personal investment of time and energy contradicts your assertion. I take great pleasure in seeing folks enjoy what I have created here. I give back to any scene I take from many times over. Anyone who actually knows me knows this to be true, and I'm comfortable with people hiding behind screen names not getting that.

Is Matt Batts not community oriented because he doesn't wat Pittsfield to become a tourist trap because of his efforts? Tourists are not members of a community they visit, by definition.

You all just need to get over the fact that my mantra rings more true every day for all but the segment of riders trying to make money of VTMTB, or those seduced by social status associated with commercial MTB activity like VMBA clubs. I got where I am based on decades of involvement and honest observation. You can't hide from the truth, and GMT is seeming to begin to realize, and it's a bummer because there is never enough time, never enough help, but never a shortage of customers.
 
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