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Considering all the rain we've had it's in great shape! Stay tuned for work party to harden the trail above the bog, that's what those new rock piles are for. New Duthie parking lot will start construction soon, the trail from the lot goes thru 5 parcels of private land so that's been the latest hold up.

Please shop cutting corners and riding little "options" off to the side. It just makes the trail wider. If you can't make the turns slow down, that's why we put them there. If you want wide trails go do laps on the fire roads on Tiger. Saw lots of skid marks today, are there a bunch of people who haven't ridden it before or are some regulars forgetting where the tight corners are?
 

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Dave,

As you know. People take the path of least resistance. When you put in the rock, make it a bit more bumpy on the inner side of the turns, that will force 99% of riders around the smooth, bermed, outsloped area. It is more sustainable, fun, and faster to boot. You just have to build the trail that way.

As an example of what NOT to do can be found at Duthie. There is a left hander with logs on the outside edge coming up past the rise after the Boardwalk. When it was first built 3 years ago, you had to ride on the logs, which were put there because there was a mud hole at that corner. The logs were angled inward (to drain), and worked well as long as people rode them. After the first year people started to avoid the 'bumpy logs' and cut to the inside. Now that turn is about 6 feet across, and there is another mud hole exactly where people are riding. I think I am one of the only ones that still rides the bumpy logs to the outside...

If you put an entry bumper on the turn, people will go in the direction of least resistance. So if the bumper is on the inside, it will force them up onto the sloped berm, onto dry dirt and away from mud holes which sit on the inside.

IMO, that is the only way you will prevent trails and their turns from getting wider and wider with use.
 

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I rode GR Saturday and Monday. Indeed, I saw some evidence of skidding, but IMHO nothing that wouldn't be expected on a trail that sees high use. Let's face it, skidding sometimes can't be avoided, as maneuvering on a MTB isn't always predictable. I am not saying that Dave isn't correct; we should all avoid skidding, but sometimes it happens unavoidably.

But the horse damage I saw yesterday is something else altogether. There are some fairly deep holes on the north side of GR, and it appears it was just one horse that cause the damage. IMHO, the steeps grades of GR are not good for horses because damage to the trail occurs when the they are trying to find secure footing on the steep inclines.
 

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We too saw the damage from just one horse and I was amazed at what I thought was a fairly firm surface being seriously damaged, in places 4-6" deep (or more) and many more places with > 0.5" deep hoof prints. Many of the prints were within 12" centered on the middle of the trail, but some were also off-line, which can lead to trail undermining and failure.

I hope the equestrian is just not aware of the damage and not a "I don't give a sh!t" type, but we never caught up to them to suss out the situation.
 

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IMHO, the steeps grades of GR are not good for horses because damage to the trail occurs when the they are trying to find secure footing on the steep inclines.
Bingo. Countless hours and tons of rock have been put into the climb on Holder Ridge at Taylor Mountain. We even dug out "steps" and back filled them with rock before grading and smoothing the sections to combat the effects of horses climbing steep grades. Even with all that work there are still "horse steps" that have formed (the trail literally starts to look like stairs were cut into it) as well as trenches, mud pits and holes.

As far as skidding goes, it happens. Especially on a fast, downhill section with sharp corners in it. New riders may expect GR dh sections to "flow" like its neighbor duthie and are consequently caught off guard when it in fact does not, inducing panic braking. That section above the bog caught me by surprise when I first rode it.
 

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Back to the issue of skidding, our local trails have been altered to encourage riding over your head by dumbing down the skill needed. If you rode too fast on Iverson, (used to be called Fat Hand, which used to be the Trials trail for the moto trials people) you would get hurt. The roots, logs, rocks, stream crossings, would keep you in check. Same for the old GR of 20 yrs ago. Preston also.

Now the trails' challenge is speed and the fight of gravity. What else would you expect? The Duthie situation of " pedal, pedal, pose" has exaggerated this.

Adrenaline junkies have to scrub off speed and the consequences for mistakes have been minimised by removing anything that forces you to be a better rider.

Maybe the future of trail building will have more natural features to challenge us in the name of sustainability.
 

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This may sound overly simple. But, why not chicanes prior to known areas of concern? drop a log offset so folks have to jog through them? Yeah, I know, someone who has their "flow" hurt will just come out and saw them out. Or, make a jump out of it. But, maybe it's a start. GR is a freeway as it is so unless like Sven says, the trails are changed, Dave will just keep (Perhaps rightly so) complaining. As for the horses, that's another issue.
 

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Let's not forget that Duthie is a KC park. Park managers like situations which do not hit their maintenance budgets. A lot of the "tech" disappeared over time due to the extreme use the trails get. On step-it-up I built a few "tech" features as replacements however most of the "mandatory" ones had worn in ride-arounds within a few weeks.
 

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Lots of new trail opportunities in the works right now and trail etiquette is always a big part of the discussions. Fortunately I can honestly say that the vast majority of mt bikers would agree with Dave -- which boils down to: "leave no trace!"

Consider the perception from the land manager and other users: purposely skidding around a tight turn, cutting a corner or creating your own option isn't that different from leaving your garbage in the woods. Kinda like creating a mess for someone else to clean up. We've all done it. Whether on purpose or by mistake. Just asking that we don't forget about basic trail etiquette -- especially on multi-use trails.
 
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