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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, so I'm going tubeless and want to clarify a few things before I buy all my supplies. I will setting up a 650B Velocity Blunt up front with IRD Fire Pro 2.1 and a Mavic 717 with Specialized Control 2Bliss on the rear.
1. What do I need as far as rim strip to cover the spoke holes? (I will either be doing ghetto or Stan's strip but I think I need something sealing up the spoke holes under this or can I just have a bare rim and stick a ghetto tube or stan's strip in there?) Will the Velocity rim plugs work? What about packing tape I've seen mentioned? To clarify, both rims are totally bare right now and have no strip or anything covering the spoke holes so should something be in there covering these holes before I put the ghetto tube in?
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=10982

2. What is lighter for the 26" rear setup (pretty sure I'm going ghetto with a 24" tube for the 650B since Stan's doesn't appear to offer a presta valve strip that will work with 650B, don't want to drillout for Shraeder valve), a ghetto 20" setup or Stan's strip?

Other than that, I think I've got everything. Here's my list:
Answer to #1: whatever I need to cover the spoke holes if anything
20" tube or Stan's strip for rear
24" tube for 650B front
Stan's sealant
I'm thinking that's everything I need. Thanks in advance and sorry for any repeat questions. I did a search and couldn't find an answer that made #1 clear to me.
 

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Strapping tape

When I bought Stan's strips years ago they came with a roll that looked like plain old strapping tape, and that is what I use under my 20" split tube ghetto strips that I use now.

I personally think that 20" split tubes are easier to do than Stan's strips. You don't have to be so darn picky about getting them perfectly pulled evenly around the rim, so that they go up to the edge of the rim perfectly, and fiddle with them a bunch to get them just right.

Just get them fairly even, split the tube, wipe off the powder with a wet rag, and mount the tire up. I put on one bead and the other most of the way, then add the sealant and finish the second bead. Then just air to 35psi and shake the sealant onto the sidewalls. A quick trim of the excess rubber and you are done. I run 25psi front, 27psi rear with the DHEA front, and Minion DHF in the back.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
twowheelsdown2002 said:
When I bought Stan's strips years ago they came with a roll that looked like plain old strapping tape, and that is what I use under my 20" split tube ghetto strips that I use now.

I personally think that 20" split tubes are easier to do than Stan's strips. You don't have to be so darn picky about getting them perfectly pulled evenly around the rim, so that they go up to the edge of the rim perfectly, and fiddle with them a bunch to get them just right.

Just get them fairly even, split the tube, wipe off the powder with a wet rag, and mount the tire up. I put on one bead and the other most of the way, then add the sealant and finish the second bead. Then just air to 35psi and shake the sealant onto the sidewalls. A quick trim of the excess rubber and you are done. I run 25psi front, 27psi rear with the DHEA front, and Minion DHF in the back.
Thanks, is this the same tape you are talking about? http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=12846
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
twowheelsdown2002 said:
No, there is no need for that under a split tube.

Just plain old strapping tape you can get at any hardware store, Walmart, etc. It is the tape with the strands in it that is really hard to break. It is very cheap.
Okay, thanks I'll give that a try. Nothing else needed between the spoke holes and the split tube?
 

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Use the proper Stans rim strip, it is tapered in thickness because it serves more than one function. It ensures the tire stays pushed against the rim and will move with the tire if the tire is pinched and a bead pops. Its an engineered system and does more than just seal the spoke holes.

Honestly take the advice already given and look at the Stans website, its all explained there with videos even.
 

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4JawChuck said:
Use the proper Stans rim strip, it is tapered in thickness because it serves more than one function. It ensures the tire stays pushed against the rim and will move with the tire if the tire is pinched and a bead pops. Its an engineered system and does more than just seal the spoke holes.
OK. I bought a Stan's kit for road tubeless. For this system, Stan's supplies tape and sealant only with a Hutchinson UST tire. No rimstrip. Stan's says it is the tubeless tire design and construction, not the rim, that keeps the tire on the rim.

So my thought was, if the road kit with UST tire does not require an expensive rimstrip, why not off-road? One big difference, obviously, is the tire pressure. You are running 25 +/- psi off-road, and above 80 for road. Also, the rims are narrower.

Anyway, I came up with my own version of ghetto which works for me. I seal the rims with the yellow tape (you could also use strapping or gorilla). I then apply on layer of Scotch rubber mastic tape, 1" wide. If you stretch this while applying the same way you stretch the yellow tape, you can get it to seat just below the rim flange - mimicking a rimstrip. I use a presta valve with removable core cut out from an old tube. Mount UST tire, inject sealant, pump by hand (no compressor needed).

Voila.

Holds a tire just fine.
 

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4JawChuck said:
Use the proper Stans rim strip, it is tapered in thickness because it serves more than one function. It ensures the tire stays pushed against the rim and will move with the tire if the tire is pinched and a bead pops. Its an engineered system and does more than just seal the spoke holes.
I started out using Stan's strips 5 years ago, and for the last 2 and a half years have switched over to 20" split tubes and have had just as good of success as with Stan's strips. In fact, I think they air up and seal even easier IMO.

As for the Stan's strip "moving with the tire", the split tube ends up being stuck to the tire almost like it is glued. When I take off my tires, my ghetto strips are stuck right to the bead of the tire, and as I pull the tire off I have to put a plastic lever in between the tire bead and rubber strip, and run it around the tire to separate the 2 from each other. Stan's had to make his rubber strips a harder compound because they are intended to be reused. I think the softer split tubes get a better seal, with the downside being that you junk them when you change tires. Stan's strips end up being junked too after a number of tire changes, so cost ends up being a wash.

That is one reason I have not burped a ghetto setup IMO, because if the tire gets pushed away from the bead, the tube is stuck to it and goes with it maintaining the seal. Don't let these people fool you with this Mumbo Jumbo about Stan's strips being an "engineered system". The fact is a standard tire was never "engineered" to seal air to a rim, and Stan's strips is just a method to overcome that, and just because someone mass marketed it does not necessarily make it any better than other methods such as a split tube. Unless of course, you ask Stan, then I'm sure he'll tell you how much better it is.:rolleyes:
 

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twowheelsdown2002 said:
I started out using Stan's strips 5 years ago, and for the last 2 and a half years have switched over to 20" split tubes and have had just as good of success as with Stan's strips. In fact, I think they air up and seal even easier IMO.
This is the rubber tape I use. http://www.lowes.com/pd_158593-98-2228_0_?productId=3127859&Ntt=scotch&Ntk=i_products&pl=1&currentURL=/pl__0__s?newSearch=true$Ntt=scotch$y=11$x=29

One roll will cover one 26" rim. Costs about the same as a 20" tube - assuming you already have a valve, of course. I've got old patched tubes all over my shop I can cut the valves out of. Less labor to install.

I'd be interested in your take on this as opposed to split tube.
 

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twowheelsdown2002 said:
I started out using Stan's strips 5 years ago, and for the last 2 and a half years have switched over to 20" split tubes and have had just as good of success as with Stan's strips. In fact, I think they air up and seal even easier IMO.
Well of course they air up easier, they don't have to pop over the thicker tapered rubber area which is there to keep the tire on the bead.

As for the Stan's strip "moving with the tire", the split tube ends up being stuck to the tire almost like it is glued. When I take off my tires, my ghetto strips are stuck right to the bead of the tire, and as I pull the tire off I have to put a plastic lever in between the tire bead and rubber strip, and run it around the tire to separate the 2 from each other. Stan's had to make his rubber strips a harder compound because they are intended to be reused. I think the softer split tubes get a better seal, with the downside being that you junk them when you change tires. Stan's strips end up being junked too after a number of tire changes, so cost ends up being a wash.
The Stans rim liner is more durable and has higher deflection resistance, add the thicker center section and you have a liner that has higher resistance to burping. I have yet to wear out a Stans rim strip and I change tires often. All these "minuses" you quote are what makes the Stans rim tape exceptional in comparison to a split tube. Seems to me the cost is about the same except you have to split a tube to do a ghetto setup every time you change a tire, I don't understand this argument at all if the cost is the same and the Stans strip lasts longer?

That is one reason I have not burped a ghetto setup IMO, because if the tire gets pushed away from the bead, the tube is stuck to it and goes with it maintaining the seal. Don't let these people fool you with this Mumbo Jumbo about Stan's strips being an "engineered system". The fact is a standard tire was never "engineered" to seal air to a rim, and Stan's strips is just a method to overcome that, and just because someone mass marketed it does not necessarily make it any better than other methods such as a split tube. Unless of course, you ask Stan, then I'm sure he'll tell you how much better it is.:rolleyes
Stans engineered the system he sells, you engineered the split tube you installed on your rim. The tapered rim strip has a number of significant advantages over a straight thickness tube which you do not acknowledge...thats fine. However it is well known a "ghetto" tubeless setup is much more susceptible to burps compared to a Stans rimstrip, its not rocket science as to why. I could go into how a "ghetto" setup actually pushes the tire away from the bead socket because its pinched inbetween the tire and bead area making them easier to burp to begin with but I don't need to convince anyone...its pretty obvious to anyone who has done a ghetto conversion and have them burp on the trail why its inferior.
 

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4JawChuck said:
Stans engineered the system he sells, you engineered the split tube you installed on your rim. The tapered rim strip has a number of significant advantages over a straight thickness tube which you do not acknowledge...thats fine. However it is well known a "ghetto" tubeless setup is much more susceptible to burps compared to a Stans rimstrip, its not rocket science as to why. I could go into how a "ghetto" setup actually pushes the tire away from the bead socket because its pinched inbetween the tire and bead area making them easier to burp to begin with but I don't need to convince anyone...its pretty obvious to anyone who has done a ghetto conversion and have them burp on the trail why its inferior.
I'll ask you the same question: What about UST tires and just tape (2 layers of yellow and 1 layer of mastic) on a regular rim? I've seen Stan's video where he burbs various systems with his hands. I haven't ridden a lot of miles with the system I jury rigged, but no burping so far and I can't do it by hand at 25 psi.

Stan himself says its the tire design and not the rim that holds the tire on. The road conversion works with UST tires, non UST rims, and no rimstrip - but of course the pressure is over 80 psi with a road tire. So why wouldn't the same system work off-road? Tire pressure?
 

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Well of course they air up easier, they don't have to pop over the thicker tapered rubber area which is there to keep the tire on the bead.
A ghetto strip is softer which allows the bead of the tire to compress the strip and seat further under the rim bead. The Stan's strip is meant to be reused, and it's harder compound does not allow the tire bead to compress it as well, and to seat into the bead area as far.

The Stans rim liner is more durable and has higher deflection resistance, add the thicker center section and you have a liner that has higher resistance to burping. I have yet to wear out a Stans rim strip and I change tires often. All these "minuses" you quote are what makes the Stans rim tape exceptional in comparison to a split tube. Seems to me the cost is about the same except you have to split a tube to do a ghetto setup every time you change a tire, I don't understand this argument at all if the cost is the same and the Stans strip lasts longer?
I have worn out several Stan's strips. The cost is about the same because a tube runs about $3 and a Stan's strip about 7 or 8 times more. After wearing out 7 or 8 tires on a Stan's strip, it will be about done for. Therefore, similar cost.

Stans engineered the system he sells, you engineered the split tube you installed on your rim. The tapered rim strip has a number of significant advantages over a straight thickness tube which you do not acknowledge...thats fine. However it is well known a "ghetto" tubeless setup is much more susceptible to burps compared to a Stans rimstrip, its not rocket science as to why. I could go into how a "ghetto" setup actually pushes the tire away from the bead socket because its pinched inbetween the tire and bead area making them easier to burp to begin with but I don't need to convince anyone...its pretty obvious to anyone who has done a ghetto conversion and have them burp on the trail why its inferior.
The tapered strip supposedly pushes the tire out, yet the strip is flexible, so can be pushed inward. As to the ghetto strip pushing the tire away from the bead socket, it is softer than a Stan's strip, allowing the tire to compress it and fit further into the bead socket. The Stan's strip is harder(to be reused) and fits all the way to the edge of the bead, and compresses less, thereby not allowing the bead to set as far into the bead socket. As for it being "well known" that a ghetto setup is more prone to burps, I find that pretty funny. I never had a burp with either method in 5 years of using both. Fact is, both work, but I don't have to spend a bunch of time trying to get a ghetto strip perfectly in place like you have to with a Stan's strip. And if it gets wrinkled, I am out 3 bucks. Not $24. When I change tires, I don't have to spend a half hour cleaning gummed up sealant off the strip so I can reuse it. I pull it out and throw it away and put in a new one. Takes a heck of a lot less time.
 

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dwt said:
I'll ask you the same question: What about UST tires and just tape (2 layers of yellow and 1 layer of mastic) on a regular rim? I've seen Stan's video where he burbs various systems with his hands. I haven't ridden a lot of miles with the system I jury rigged, but no burping so far and I can't do it by hand at 25 psi.

Stan himself says its the tire design and not the rim that holds the tire on. The road conversion works with UST tires, non UST rims, and no rimstrip - but of course the pressure is over 80 psi with a road tire. So why wouldn't the same system work off-road? Tire pressure?
Lets just say you have this UST tire laying around or you got a good deal on one and want to use it, you install it with the proper Stans rim strip and go. You get none of the advantages of the UST bead/rim interface and the tighter bead of the UST tire just might not seat due to the extra thickness of the Stans rimstrip under the bead. So what you are proposing is forgoing the rimstrip (it might not fit right!) with a "ghetto" rimstrip to seal the rim and depend on the UST tire to hold on a non-UST rim...sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I doubt you could burp a tire at 25 psi by hand...add a few hundred pounds of force offcamber on the trail while the tire is turned however and you may have a problem. You only need to look at the bead area on a UST rim to see how they are a different shape and the tire has a corresponding shaped bead to fit...its an interlocking square shape thats proprietary to the UST brand.

The real issue I am trying to point out is the tire is a integral part of you being able to ride and stay on the bike, back yard engineering some kind of cheapo system without testing is dumb and dangerous, sure it might work fine while the tire is full of air but drop the air pressure down to very low levels (like when you get a puncture) and all of a sudden it comes apart at speed. The web is full of forum posts about "ghetto" tubeless systems throwing the tire when it lets go, sometimes it jams the rear or front wheel when the tire come off the bead. Stans rimstrip is designed to help hold the tire on the bead down to very low pressures and is proven to work.

The UST tire and rim are designed together, the rim has a shaped bead seat that matches the tire bead and interlocks so it doesn't roll off, thats why they are so hard to get on and off! You can see the lock ridge in this photo showing the different bead seat designs on UST and non-UST rims in this photo. The bead fit is of much higher tolerance on UST tires also thats why mfg's must have tires they want to have the UST logo tested and licensed before they can brand it as UST. You want to risk losing a tire at speed DH because you wanted to save $10 on a rimstrip and some guy on the internetz says it works exactly the same is up to you...just don't say you weren't told.



On one bike I use non-UST tires on Bontrager UST compatible rims with the appropriately designed Stans rimstrip, works like a charm. Consult the Stans website to get the proper rimstrip to fit your rim here;

https://www.notubes.com/support_selecting.php

A list of tires considered compatible or not compatible is listed here;

https://www.notubes.com/support_tire.php

You want to step outside the recommendations? Good luck...you just became the engineer...its your teeth.:thumbsup:
 

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4JawChuck said:
Stans rimstrip is designed to help hold the tire on the bead down to very low pressures and is proven to work.

The UST tire and rim are designed together, the rim has a shaped bead seat that matches the tire bead and interlocks so it doesn't roll off, thats why they are so hard to get on and off! You can see the lock ridge in this photo showing the different bead seat designs on UST and non-UST rims in this photo. The bead fit is of much higher tolerance on UST tires also thats why mfg's must have tires they want to have the UST logo tested and licensed before they can brand it as UST.
So one minute you are proclaiming that Stan's is "engineered", and is the best thing since sliced bread.

Then the next you are proclaiming that UST is sliced bread with butter on it. And yet the very Stan's guy you worship has this little video where he tries to show how his system with a regular tire and his strip is much less prone to burps than UST.:confused:

http://www.notubes.com/moviecompar.php

So you think Stan's crap don't stink but love UST even though he completely disses it?:confused: But it is "engineered"!! Can't be bad if it is "engineered" now can it? Only engineers ever made anything in this world that works.:rolleyes:

I'm just wondering why Stan's did not do a comparison vs ghetto tubeless in that little video of his showing how other tubeless systems burp so much easier. Surely he could not be scared that his "engineered" system would not perform better than "ghetto"? Wouldn't he want to show off and keep all these people from using what is probably his biggest competition for business out there?

One other last consideration. You keep talking about how the thicker center section of Stan's keeps the tire pushed out to the side. Ever take a look at every rim out there? See what they all do in the center? That's right, they all dip in the middle in order to make a tire easier to install. So what is that thicker center section going to do? It is going to set down in that center section completely negating any effect that being taller in the center would have on pushing the bead outward. If a rim were flat in the center it might have some effect in that regard, but that is not the case on any clincher rim, and I can get the same effect by building up the center section of the rim with tape before installing the split tube, so again, nothing there that I can't completely duplicate with a simple split tube. Except for the ability to reuse, which as I have stated before, makes his rim strips harder, not allowing the tire bead to compress it and seat into the rim bead socket as well.

I can find plenty of people who have had trouble with every system out there, including Stan's, and UST. Some people even had certain Schwalbe tires that the UST bead literally snapped for no apparent reason. So much for engineering.:rolleyes: Every system comes with risks, with no guarantee. Stuff happens, parts fail sometimes. Being "engineered" is in no way a guarantee of success. I think just about every tubeless method out there can be made to work well with a little research, common sense, and proper preparation.
 

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4JawChuck said:
You want to step outside the recommendations? Good luck...you just became the engineer...its your teeth.:thumbsup:
I'd be interested in your take on these recommendations for road tubeless conversion, which does not require a rim strip, only tape and Hutchinson UST tires:

"I've heard the only rim you can use to run 700c road tubeless is the Shimano Dura Ace. Is this true?"

No, there are three things a tubeless rim can do:

1) A tubeless rim can make tires mount harder or easier
2) A tubeless rim can make inflating harder or easier
3) The biggest thing a tubeless rim should do is once the tires inflated the rim should trap air better when used in a tubeless application. (Not burp or lose air pressure when riding over bumps)

A rim cannot stop tires from stretching and blowing off the rim. If this were the case we would have had tubeless road rims years ago. The rim cannot make the tire bead stronger. This bead strength or stretching problem must be addressed in the tire design. This means you can inflate the Hutchinson tubeless 700c tire on most any standard rim and not have it stretch off the rim.

What do I need?
# If your rim has traditional spoke hole drillings start with one roll of NoTubes 21mm yellow spoke tape (will do 2 layers on 2 rims), two 44mm tubeless road valve stem, two Hutchinson Fusion 2 road tubeless tires and 2oz of NoTubes sealant per tire.
# If your 700c road rims do not have holes in the inner rim cavity like the, Mavic Ksyrium all you need are the 44mm road valve stems and Hutchinson Tubeless road tires and sealant.

Remember you can only use the Hutchinson Road Tubeless tire on your rim for tubeless use. It does not matter what other road tire you have it will stretch and blow off the rim.This is currently the only tire you can use.

http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_58/products_id/416
 

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dwt said:
I'd be interested in your take on these recommendations for road tubeless conversion, which does not require a rim strip, only tape and Hutchinson UST tires:

"I've heard the only rim you can use to run 700c road tubeless is the Shimano Dura Ace. Is this true?"

No, there are three things a tubeless rim can do:

1) A tubeless rim can make tires mount harder or easier
2) A tubeless rim can make inflating harder or easier
3) The biggest thing a tubeless rim should do is once the tires inflated the rim should trap air better when used in a tubeless application. (Not burp or lose air pressure when riding over bumps)

A rim cannot stop tires from stretching and blowing off the rim. If this were the case we would have had tubeless road rims years ago. The rim cannot make the tire bead stronger. This bead strength or stretching problem must be addressed in the tire design. This means you can inflate the Hutchinson tubeless 700c tire on most any standard rim and not have it stretch off the rim.

What do I need?
# If your rim has traditional spoke hole drillings start with one roll of NoTubes 21mm yellow spoke tape (will do 2 layers on 2 rims), two 44mm tubeless road valve stem, two Hutchinson Fusion 2 road tubeless tires and 2oz of NoTubes sealant per tire.
# If your 700c road rims do not have holes in the inner rim cavity like the, Mavic Ksyrium all you need are the 44mm road valve stems and Hutchinson Tubeless road tires and sealant.

Remember you can only use the Hutchinson Road Tubeless tire on your rim for tubeless use. It does not matter what other road tire you have it will stretch and blow off the rim.This is currently the only tire you can use.

http://www.notubes.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_58/products_id/416
This is almost identical to the "gorilla tape" method used by some to make a do it yourself tubeless system on mountain bikes. The main difference being that with the lower pressure of a mountain bike tire, standard tires can be used.

With the high pressure of a road bike, only Hutchinson tubeless road tires have a strong enough bead to not blow off.

You might want to hit up the "Road Bike Review" web site since that is their specialty over there. You are much more likely to find riders that have used the setup.

Gotta go where the roadies dwell. As Seinfeld once said "Not that there's anything wrong with that".;)
 
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