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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The Trek/Fisher product introduction, described at http://www.mbaction.com/detail.asp?id=1975 and http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2006/features/trek_mtb_2007, mentions that they're throwing down some new, Bontrager-tweaked geometry on their 26" bikes... including special forks with 46mm offset.

Isn't that what the rake/trail/geometry afficionados on this board have been pining for?

Would a 26" Manitou with increased offset and a Lenz hub be a better offering than a regular Reba 29er fork?

If Reba crown/steerer/stanchion assemblies are interchangeable between 26 and 29, would a special, "handling by Bontrager" crown/steerer/stanchion be an excellent upgrade for existing Rebas?
 

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nick3216 said:
Apparently Genesis 2.0 forks will be available aftermarket.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/article.php?sid=2056

Imagine, an upgrade to Real Steering!
I do find it a bit odd that Bontrager crowns (Mag20 etc) offered a SHORTER fork rake (claiming better handling).

Now we have these (Bontrager inspired) crowns - with LONGER rake (claiming better handling).

ah well.
 

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Take an idea the world has been screaming for to be put in practice for 29"ers.

And.

Introduce it in 26", where everyone was convinced they had hit the holy grail of bike geometry already.

One problem still unsolved.
One non-problem put out in the open.

An atempt to spice up the appetite of the 26" crowd to buy Fishers?
 

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In 2020 we'll see super slack HTA's and negative rake, for high-speed stability with still good weight on the front wheel.
 

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Cloxxki said:
Take an idea the world has been screaming for to be put in practice for 29"ers.
You sure about that, JG? Seems to me there's only been a very small group, sorta led by you, that has been very vocal. How does that translate into 'the world'?

Having ridden an adjustable rake sus fork on my Behemoth and Leviathan, my $.02 is that the rake is perfect where it is. The difference between 36 and 44mm was so small as to be almost imperceptible. Changing tires had a much bigger impact on the front end. Had I not made the adjustment and double checked the measurements myself, I might not have believed there was a difference. Without a substantive difference, what's the point of having the fork makers retool?

Much ado about nothing, IMO.

MC
 

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Mike, if I'm leading the 3-man army for longer offset on 29"er, you're the emperor of slow handling bikes :) Of course you like short offset!
 

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Cloxxki said:
Mike, if I'm leading the 3-man army for longer offset on 29"er, you're the emperor of slow handling bikes :) Of course you like short offset!
Granted, I've never been bothered by short offset and slack HTA's. In fact, I seek them out on most of my bikes. But even when I rode the same bikes with waaaay more offset than normal, the difference was barely noticable. I just don't see why the Army of 3 is so amped about this difference, when it doesn't amount to a hill of beans on the trail.

??
 

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This is precisely the type of thread that cracks me up on the 29er board........Trek announces that they'll be tweaking the geometry a bit on their 26" Fishers....and all of the sudden we have a thread on the 29" board about Fisher's new 29" geometry:)

Did I miss something in the article about new 29" geometry?

Ya'll are pretty entertaining at times.

B
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
it's just interesting food for thought...

NJC01 or somebody recently put a Reba World Cup crown/steerer/stanchion assembly on his 29er Reba. Apparently that's do-able. Now there's this Bontrager'ed crown/steerer/stanchion thing for Manitous, and other companies will "definitely" be offering them too. So next, maybe Rockshox has a "Genesis 2" version of its 26" Reba, and then you can toss parts from that onto your 29er Reba. Or, if Manitou gets it together and offers a 29er Minute, seems like one part of the problem's already taken care of.

I don't know, guys... most of the stuff we're riding on is SO killer, just as it is... and that whets my appetite for what kind of cool stuff might be around the corner!

I don't know anything about rake or trail, or if this change would make a big difference or not... but, it sure is interesting nonetheless. No feather-ruffling intended...
 

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Harmonius Wrench
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mikesee said:
Granted, I've never been bothered by short offset and slack HTA's. In fact, I seek them out on most of my bikes. But even when I rode the same bikes with waaaay more offset than normal, the difference was barely noticable. I just don't see why the Army of 3 is so amped about this difference, when it doesn't amount to a hill of beans on the trail.

??
Mike: You say the difference isn't that big, for you. Perhaps this doesn't translate well for everybody. I think alot of us would just like to have the option to try it for ourselves. Not that your opinion doesn't matter, it does.

Also, what say you about more offset to make smaller sized 29"ers with shorter top tubes? Wouldn't that 44mm offset allow for a builder to create a smaller sized 29"er without fear of toe overlap? If it's not that big a deal for handling, then why not do it for this reason?
 

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In Mike's view, a mini-29"er could perfectly be made around a 39mm offset Reba or WB, but simply choppering the headtube sub-70º, right Mike? Plenty of toe clearance to go to a short top tube, and still preferred handling.
Many riders seem to like the FEEL of a borderline nervous bike though, and a long offset fork will make a small yet quick handling 29"er happen.
 

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Mark-

Guitar Ted said:
Mike: You say the difference isn't that big, for you. Perhaps this doesn't translate well for everybody. I think alot of us would just like to have the option to try it for ourselves. Not that your opinion doesn't matter, it does.
I hear ya, and I agree with you to a point. Notice that my eval wasn't good vs. bad, fast vs. slow, or twitchy vs stable, it was just "I didn't notice much difference". I buy the argument that changing offset changes the handling of the bike (duh) I just don't think the difference is big/noticable/important enough to ask all the fork manufacturers to change what they're doing. KnowwhatImean?

If you've got access to a WB TA fork I'll gladly send you my adjuster/adapters so that you can repeat the experiment on your bike/your trails.

Guitar Ted said:
Also, what say you about more offset to make smaller sized 29"ers with shorter top tubes? Wouldn't that 44mm offset allow for a builder to create a smaller sized 29"er without fear of toe overlap? If it's not that big a deal for handling, then why not do it for this reason?
More offset would allow shorter top-tubed bikes with no toe overlap, true. But the issue (IMHO) with vertically challenged people not fitting stock 29" bikes revolves around standover much more than top tube length and/or toe overlap. Changing the fork rake isn't going to help the standover, not appreciably anyway.

MC
 

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The standover thing is just related to frame design. Half the bikes sold in my country don't even HAVE top tubes. Standover really is just 1" and change taller on a 29"er of identical design, so if 29" is too tall, 26" was already really close. Coincidence more than smart design if the 26" fits.
Not denying that 29" does make thing tight for shorter riders if the frame designer didn't take this into account.
 

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Harmonius Wrench
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Knowwhatchamean......I think!

I buy the argument that changing offset changes the handling of the bike (duh) I just don't think the difference is big/noticable/important enough to ask all the fork manufacturers to change what they're doing. KnowwhatImean?
mikesee

Hmm........I think I know what you mean. I have a stock KM/KM fork bike and a stock On One/On One fork bike. The On One steers a bit tighter turn with less effort, but in reality, ( read: actual trail conditions) I'm not sure that would even be an issue or noticeable. I agree that other factors such as tire choice are far more influential upon your handling traits. At least for off road bikes.

The thing is, even though it may not be important enough to ask manufacturers to change what they're doing: somebody already has! (Fisher) For whatever reason it got done, ( marketing something "new" comes to mind) it exists in 26 inch forks, so why not have it for 29"ers? If they are going to the trouble, then getting a return on investment would seem to be of importance and doing a 29"er fork where their is a perception of a need for that would seem to be a smart move.

Plus, we all would have another option, and options for consumers is a good thing, no?

So, in summary: As long as you guys are going to all this trouble for 26"ers, how 'bout a 29"er fork too? :p
 

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It's as simple as this : supposing that the current world standard of 71º/38mm 26" bikes offer the ideal mainstream XC steering geometry, it makes sence to give 29"ers more offset to get the same trail figure and win some toe clearance. 29" wheels after all eat up a good inch of toe clearance. Right now most 29"ers get a 1º steeper HTA to correct for the otherwise slower handling (over the 26" world standard), which takes another 1/2" of toe clearance.
Right now, 29" toptubes NEED to be long, and smaller sized bikes get slacker head tube angles to not get in TO(e) trouble. Long offset forks will make designing good and natural riding 29"er for the masses much easier, and no-compromize.

Jones bikes have been reviewed to handle "orgasmic", and get ~70º HTA's with ~70mm offset. Short top tubes, quick and stable handling, yet tons of toe clearance. It works for half a dozen of customers each year ;-)
 

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mikesee said:
The difference between 36 and 44mm was so small as to be almost imperceptible. Changing tires had a much bigger impact on the front end.

Strange, On the road /cross- bike 8mm has a major effect. On the other hand I turned my WB crown once around and the bike was still very much ridable with 60 mm? more trail.
 
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