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This is not something I normally do, but I think it is important for companies to be truthful with their consumers... From a very reliable source I know for a fact that a certain online based company and store with has purchased a number of Ellsworth Id frames, maybe even Truth frames from a large retailer, no big deal right. Wrong, I know that these frames retail for $2000-$2400, I also know that the wholesale on the frames is about $1200... Fair enough, you need an account with the company, etc, and that cost money, and places need to turn a profit, but when the internet company purchases all these frames for as little as say half the wholesale price and turns around and to sell them for about $2000 they are making a killing on buying company's old stock. Some may think this to be alright, but I find this deal to be very unethical if the company is not going to pass the savings onto the consumer... I will not name the companies, but BEWARE if you are purchasing one of these frames... You might even see them on Ebay...

Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Speech...
 

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I usually avoid discussions like this, but I feel that Ellsworth isn't being treated fairly here.

I don't disagree that the Ellsworth Truth is an expensive bike, but it's also a good bike, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the way it's priced. Ellsworth is free to charge as much as they like on it, and similarly, the retailer is free to sell it for as much as they like. Just as we are free to not buy one. I personally think it's grossly overpriced and would never buy one, but those who have one love it. If people think it's worth that much, then let them buy it.
 

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it really doesn't matter what the online buyer got the frames for. it's supply and demand. the market price is the market price and that's what they'll be sold for. why would the undersell themselves? sounds to me like this internet dealer just lucked out like hell. you can't expect the online retailer to sell the bikes for less than they'll go for. the demand is there.

after all, why does a bunch of welded steel or aluminum tubes go for 1000 dollars? not because of the cost to manufacture or the cost of materials. i should build my own frames, dammit. could probably buy the steel or aluminum for thirty bucks -- and that's the msrp not the wholesale price.
 

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Don't touch me!
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I'd rather buy a custom TI Titus RacerX with SPV shock.

Seems like a better deal for only $50 more if you ask me.
 

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Gpuck said:
This is not something I normally do, but I think it is important for companies to be truthful with their consumers... From a very reliable source I know for a fact that a certain online based company and store with has purchased a number of Ellsworth Id frames, maybe even Truth frames from a large retailer, no big deal right. Wrong, I know that these frames retail for $2000-$2400, I also know that the wholesale on the frames is about $1200... Fair enough, you need an account with the company, etc, and that cost money, and places need to turn a profit, but when the internet company purchases all these frames for as little as say half the wholesale price and turns around and to sell them for about $2000 they are making a killing on buying company's old stock. Some may think this to be alright, but I find this deal to be very unethical if the company is not going to pass the savings onto the consumer... I will not name the companies, but BEWARE if you are purchasing one of these frames... You might even see them on Ebay...

Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Speech...
Yes thank god for free speech.

It would have been more effective not to warn future Ellsworth buyers but indeed future (INSERT SHOP NAME HERE) customers...

Even then I don't know what the point being made was.

Markup is big on lots of items. Disk brake pads, chains, Ti Frames, Shocks, socks - you name it, the markup is insane, but all us suckers seem to be happy to pay, so why not charge as much as possible?
 

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after all, why does a bunch of welded steel or aluminum tubes go for 1000 dollars? not because of the cost to manufacture or the cost of materials. i should build my own frames, dammit. could probably buy the steel or aluminum for thirty bucks -- and that's the msrp not the wholesale price.

perfect, thats all i have to say, i mean in reality people pay upwards of 2000 dollars for a nice mountain bike, but the materials that its made our of probably cost the companies like 100 bucks ;)
 

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Gpuck said:
Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Speech...
Wow! You live in the US, believe in free speech, but not a free market? Making a big profit on bicycle frames is unethical?

Un****ingbelievable.
 

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So some unnamed online store got a closeout deal on some Ellsworth frames...sooo...

Are all potential buyers supposed to avoid buying from all online shops so they don't get ripped? I say ripped because since the frames were purchased outside normal distribution channels, Ellsworth doesn't have to honor the warranty. Without naming names, you're not doing anyone any favors. Spill the beans.
 

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Gpuck said:
This is not something I normally do, but I think it is important for companies to be truthful with their consumers... From a very reliable source I know for a fact that a certain online based company and store with has purchased a number of Ellsworth Id frames, maybe even Truth frames from a large retailer, no big deal right. Wrong, I know that these frames retail for $2000-$2400, I also know that the wholesale on the frames is about $1200... Fair enough, you need an account with the company, etc, and that cost money, and places need to turn a profit, but when the internet company purchases all these frames for as little as say half the wholesale price and turns around and to sell them for about $2000 they are making a killing on buying company's old stock. Some may think this to be alright, but I find this deal to be very unethical if the company is not going to pass the savings onto the consumer... I will not name the companies, but BEWARE if you are purchasing one of these frames... You might even see them on Ebay...

Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Speech...
Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Enterprise...
 

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Perfect summation..

Biking Viking said:
Wow! You live in the US, believe in free speech, but not a free market? Making a big profit on bicycle frames is unethical?

Un****ingbelievable.
You nailed it!
 

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Gpuck said:
This is not something I normally do, but I think it is important for companies to be truthful with their consumers... From a very reliable source I know for a fact that a certain online based company and store with has purchased a number of Ellsworth Id frames, maybe even Truth frames from a large retailer, no big deal right. Wrong, I know that these frames retail for $2000-$2400, I also know that the wholesale on the frames is about $1200... Fair enough, you need an account with the company, etc, and that cost money, and places need to turn a profit, but when the internet company purchases all these frames for as little as say half the wholesale price and turns around and to sell them for about $2000 they are making a killing on buying company's old stock. Some may think this to be alright, but I find this deal to be very unethical if the company is not going to pass the savings onto the consumer... I will not name the companies, but BEWARE if you are purchasing one of these frames... You might even see them on Ebay...

Hey this is why I live in the United States and this is why I believe in Free Speech...
WOW. What a totally un-warranted (no pun intended) attack on EW. What ever happened to a free market? If you don't like the price....don't pay it.

The only thing that should matter , regarding price, to the end consumer is the final price.....NOT what the profit margin is for the seller.

It's so easy to bash EW on real issues and you come up with this?
 

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antonovc said:
perfect, thats all i have to say, i mean in reality people pay upwards of 2000 dollars for a nice mountain bike, but the materials that its made our of probably cost the companies like 100 bucks ;)
You're more correct that you might be aware. If you think production costs vs. final retail price is rediculous for regular mountain bikes, you should get an insiders peek at the comparisons for trials bikes.

For example Monty, one of the most popular trials bikes in the world, had a total production cost of about $40 USD per frame (they're made by Kinesis by the way). That's their cost per finished frame. How much does that frame sell for in the US? About $700. Of course it's important to account for freight, exchange rate and middleman markup.

This example can by applied to any other mass produced frame made in the far east. Koxx prod costs...about $60USD, final retail price...about $700.

As far as I know, SAPA Anodizing Inc. makes the frames for Ellsworth. Their production costs are significanly higher. I've been communicating with SAPA to make me some trials frames, which will end up retailing for roughly the same amount as the frames made in the far east even though my manufacturing costs are nearly ten times that of the foreign frames.

The cycling industry is a tough business, especially in the US where we have such high costs of litigation. No one is getting rich of small run domestically made bike parts, no matter what the final selling cost.

No one should be slighted for trying to take advantage of the market when an opportunity presents itself. It's a rare opportunity for a company to make a relatively large profit on a small deal.
 

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Holy cow. You are right, in fact everyone should stop buying bike parts period, because those nasty retailers are making a profit off of them. At the same time we should also stop buying, food, gas, electricity and anything else because the people we buy it from will make a profit.

Do the world a favor Troll, go back under the rock that you came out from. We live in a capitalistic society, in which the free market sets prices on the majority of goods and services. Guess what it works, unlike Karl Marx great experiment. Dealers charge the price that consumers will pay. If their prices are to high, consumers won't buy, or other dealers will charge less and consumers will buy from other dealers and the market restores itself to equilibrium.

Ellsworth may be a lot of things, but this one is completely unwarranted.
 

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If the retailer is buying it wholesale for $600 like you claim, yeah, there's no way in hell that I'd buy it for $2000, that's just rediculous. The $2000+ price of the ellsworth(less) is rediculous in the first place when you look at comparable frames, but when they buy it for half of the usual wholesale and do not drop the price....since they got it for $600 I do not recognize that it is "worth" $2000.....
 

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antonovc said:
after all, why does a bunch of welded steel or aluminum tubes go for 1000 dollars? not because of the cost to manufacture or the cost of materials. i should build my own frames, dammit. could probably buy the steel or aluminum for thirty bucks -- and that's the msrp not the wholesale price.

perfect, thats all i have to say, i mean in reality people pay upwards of 2000 dollars for a nice mountain bike, but the materials that its made our of probably cost the companies like 100 bucks ;)
How about R&D? Company benefits? Payroll? Payroll taxes? Federal and state taxes? Insurance? Advertising? Costs relating to purchasing/renting of equipment? Payment of loans/leases?...

Running a business isn't as cut and dry as it sounds.
 

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Jm. said:
If the retailer is buying it wholesale for $600 like you claim, yeah, there's no way in hell that I'd buy it for $2000, that's just rediculous. The $2000+ price of the ellsworth(less) is rediculous in the first place when you look at comparable frames, but when they buy it for half of the usual wholesale and do not drop the price....since they got it for $600 I do not recognize that it is "worth" $2000.....
Who cares what benefits someone else got. If you get a bike (or anything) for a price that satisfies you, then be satisfied. If someone else can benefit from this, then it is even better if you ask me.

The most successful business plans are ones that end in a win-win situation. Why are you against someone else benefiting if it is not at your expense? Either you got a good deal, or you didn't.

I just sold a boat for probably half of what it was worth, but it was not selling, a guy came by and offered me more than I "needed" to get for it. He got a great deal, should I be pissed at him?

(FWIW: I wouldn't pay it either, but not based on the fact that someone else might benefit.)
 

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Hands Down Winner for Dumbest Post of the Year!

Gpuck said:
From a very reliable source I know for a fact that a certain online based company and store with has purchased a number of Ellsworth Id frames, maybe even Truth frames from a large retailer, ...
Are you mental?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Read the idea behind the message

No you all have missed the point... If I am a company I can only get an Ellsworth at COST, that is about $1200-$1400, that is why they retail for $2000-$2400 almost double the Wholesale price... Now if two buyers of a company are colluding on liquidating the frames for $600, which is half and more of wholesale, and turning around and making instead of $800-$1200 profit they are making$1400-$1800 profit without passing their savings upon the customer then it is not very ethical, and that is what people in the United States of American seem to no understand the difference of what is ethical, what is free enterprise and what is unethical in that matter... Take this in to account also, the frame at the company that was selling them for $600 is back up to $2000 so someone is getting a nice kickback in that deal...
 

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Well that clarifies everything.

Gpuck said:
No you all have missed the point... If I am a company I can only get an Ellsworth at COST, that is about $1200-$1400, that is why they retail for $2000-$2400 almost double the Wholesale price... Now if two buyers of a company are colluding on liquidating the frames for $600, which is half and more of wholesale, and turning around and making instead of $800-$1200 profit they are making$1400-$1800 profit without passing their savings upon the customer then it is not very ethical, and that is what people in the United States of American seem to no understand the difference of what is ethical, what is free enterprise and what is unethical in that matter... Take this in to account also, the frame at the company that was selling them for $600 is back up to $2000 so someone is getting a nice kickback in that deal...
Great point. Thanks for sharing.
 
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