REVIEWS DEALS BIKESHOPS TRAILS

Front brakes

3236 Views 46 Replies 22 Participants Last post by alexbn921, Jan 21, 2022

TheMachinist

Discussion Starter · Jan 17, 2022

I am blown away by the damage done on so many trails from riders dragging their back brake. I'm starting to think there is a whole generation of riders that doesn't know that you can use your front brakes going downhill. In fact, most of your braking is done with the front wheel, even on steep stuff, because of the weight transfer. More than a little pressure on the back brakes means skidding which makes braking bumps. The fact that Flow Trail has braking bumps is ridiculous.

Can we educate the new generation of riders to "Ride it, don't slide it"? On many of the steep trails on the dark side of the mountain in Santa Cruz, most of the erosion is from brake dragging.

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HuckingKiwi

· #2 · Jan 17, 2022

I completely agree with you. I found that traditionally people were introduced to the sport by a friend that already had a bit of experience or they bought a basic hardtail and progressed from there. In that case the friend would show proper riding/breaking technique and trail etiquette. I work at a shop and I found that this year people were jumping straight to high end bikes with very little riding experience. Those same customers would come back a month later for the free adjustment and I was not surprised to see that the front brakes had no signs of use while the rear brakes and tire were significantly worn.

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Cary

· #3 · Jan 17, 2022

All I can say is good luck with that. I (and I think a lot who are 45+) grew up being taught take care of your equipment and don't trash the resources you use. That mentality seems to be disappearing, being replaced by copying whatever cool 15 second video clip catches someone's eye. How can we expect new riders to not drag brake and trash trails when a large number of manufacture videos and pro videos show riders doing exactly that? Dragging brake to throw a rooster tail, check. Riding on muddy trails, check.

I wish there was an easy answer, but there seems to be an entire bro mentality that a lot of new riders have. They saw it on a video and therefore know everything. They aren't very interested in the ride itself or the enjoyment of the outdoors. but what bragging they can do and what quick social media post they can make to impress others. When you don't value where you ride, you don't take care of it.

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RBoardman

· #4 · Jan 17, 2022

Cary said:
All I can say is good luck with that. I (and I think a lot who are 45+) grew up being taught take care of your equipment and don't trash the resources you use. That mentality seems to be disappearing, being replaced by copying whatever cool 15 second video clip catches someone's eye. How can we expect new riders to not drag brake and trash trails when a large number of manufacture videos and pro videos show riders doing exactly that? Dragging brake to throw a rooster tail, check. Riding on muddy trails, check.

I wish there was an easy answer, but there seems to be an entire bro mentality that a lot of new riders have. They saw it on a video and therefore know everything. They aren't very interested in the ride itself or the enjoyment of the outdoors. but what bragging they can do and what quick social media post they can make to impress others. When you don't value where you ride, you don't take care of it.

Please show me one manufacture or pro video where they are dragging brake and skidding down a trail. If you are gonna call people out, you should at least know what you are talking about.

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Menso

· #5 · Jan 17, 2022

Someone who is 45 now was a 22 year old watching people skid through the early Kranked films... I don't think blaming "the kids" works in this case. And what about all the new, older, riders?

Sure, some of it is a "bro mentality" but I think a lot of it is how relatively idiot-proof modern bikes are with centered weight, long/low/slack geometry, improved suspension damping, dropper posts, tubeless soft-compound tires run at <30 psi, etc.

On the late 90's/early 2000's hardtails I learned on, if I grabbed too much brake, front or rear, I'd be on my ass pretty quickly. Now, proper brake technique is still faster, safer, and better, but a beginner can pretty much just grab a fistful of brakes in any combination and they'll probably be okay as long as they aren't going around a dry and loose fireroad corner at 20 mph, crossing a rut, or in a serious rock garden. There was a lot more self-preservation incentive to ride properly on a highpost hardtail with 100mm suspension, 26x2.0" tires at 45 PSI, and a 71° headtube angle.

Now get off my lawn!
-old man turning 33 next week.

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Cary

· #6 · Jan 17, 2022

RBoardman said:
Please show me one manufacture or pro video where they are dragging brake and skidding down a trail. If you are gonna call people out, you should at least know what you are talking about.

Reactions: 1

Menso

· #7 · Jan 17, 2022

In those videos there's plenty of sliding through corners and I'm sure the usual "sustainable trails" folks would have some choice words for them. But none of those videos have people dragging the rear down in a straight line, which is what causes the brake bumps that are the topic of this thread. I'm fairly certain those pro riders are mostly using their front brakes to slow down on the descents and only locking the rear to slide through loose corners.

the.vault

· #8 · Jan 17, 2022

Menso said:
But none of those videos have people dragging the rear down in a straight line, which is what causes the brake bumps that are the topic of this thread. I'm fairly certain those pro riders are mostly using their front brakes to slow down on the descents and only locking the rear to slide through loose corners.

Is the thread complaining about breaking bumps or other types of problems?

Braking bumps can be caused by front brakes as much as rear brakes, probably more so by front brakes. Braking bumps are caused by the load applied to a ground/soil by a rolling contact patch. It's the same as washboards on dirt road and gravel roads. Dirt gets modeled as something between a liquid and solid. I came across research because it matched up with an equipment problem I was dealing with. I suppose I can dig it up if people really want to argue about this and are interested in it.

Braking bumps will make it more likely for your rear wheel to skid, but it's really the volume of riders and load being applied to the ground which primarily comes from the front tire which cause braking bumps.

Reactions: 3

TheMachinist

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jan 18, 2022

I'm not targeting an age group. I am referring to new riders who have started riding recently who don't have good braking technique. I believe they are not even aware of the physics involved in braking and they are just afraid of going OTB so they rely too heavily on the back brakes.

I rode a steep newish trail this morning that has degraded unbelievably since the last time I rode it about a month ago. Steep sections look like they were hit with a rototiller.

mrpercussive

· #10 · Jan 18, 2022 (Edited)

Cary said:

There is a difference between skidding the rear wheel by locking your brakes which pulls the dirt out of the ground thus creating breaking bumps and doing a cutty that pumps so much force into the tire that you over come the grip of your tires. The latter actually packs in the dirt and builds the berm rather than put holes into it. That said, yes we all need to use our front brakes more... Slow is fast

Watch the slowmo and you'll see the wheel is still spinning but it's just drifting. Actually both the wheels are drifting 😅
http://instagr.am/p/CNPySe5hk3v/

mtbrdan

· #11 · Jan 18, 2022

Gonzo thinks that heavy bikes and newbs are to blame.

SpinFactor

· #12 · Jan 18, 2022 (Edited)

Loosing battle....Flow trail has BB because of the various level of riders on it...its open to all instead of black, blue & green runs... Bootleg trails get them because of poor support in turns after steep sections usually, only so much a bootleg builder can do.....be happy you have trails and dial in your suspension best you can. Learning to ride the chatter just makes you a better rider.

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mrpercussive

· #13 · Jan 18, 2022

SpinFactor said:
Loosing battle....Flow trail has BB because of the various level of riders on it...its open to all instead of black, blue & green runs... Bootleg trails get them because of poor support in turns after steep sections usually, only so much a bootleg builder can do.....be happy you have trails and dial in your suspension best you. Learning to ride the chatter just makes you a better rider.

This!!!! Oh and show up to dig days... think Fridays every week they're doing maintenance out there so yea

RBoardman

· #14 · Jan 18, 2022

TheMachinist said:
I rode a steep newish trail this morning that has degraded unbelievably since the last time I rode it about a month ago. Steep sections look like they were hit with a rototiller.

“Hit with a rototiller” sounds like a good thing to me. Loose, loamy, raw trails are my favorite. Do you want every trail tp be buffed out and packed down so the dirt is rock hard and built to last decades? Because to me, this is the type of trails I dream of:

Plant Plant community Tree Wood Branch

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Bassmantweed

· #15 · Jan 18, 2022 (Edited)

RBoardman said:
Please show me one manufacture or pro video where they are dragging brake and skidding down a trail. If you are gonna call people out, you should at least know what you are talking about.

you’re kidding right? Literally every show on the red bull biking channel show riders that purposely throw their rear tires around and skidding down trails. Granted they build or pay to have the trails built but they are setting not great examples for riders that take.

Reactions: 2

Cary

· #16 · Jan 18, 2022

the.vault said:
Is the thread complaining about breaking bumps or other types of problems?

Braking bumps can be caused by front brakes as much as rear brakes, probably more so by front brakes. Braking bumps are caused by the load applied to a ground/soil by a rolling contact patch. It's the same as washboards on dirt road and gravel roads. Dirt gets modeled as something between a liquid and solid. I came across research because it matched up with an equipment problem I was dealing with. I suppose I can dig it up if people really want to argue about this and are interested in it.

Braking bumps will make it more likely for your rear wheel to skid, but it's really the volume of riders and load being applied to the ground which primarily comes from the front tire which cause braking bumps.

So you are saying we are all wrong and applying science?! Way to ruin a perfectly good thread where we all blame different users.

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TraxFactory

· #17 · Jan 18, 2022

Cary said:
So you are saying we are all wrong and applying science?! Way to ruin a perfectly good thread where we all blame different users.

Blame the 29er contact patch

Reactions: 1

the.vault

· #18 · Jan 18, 2022 (Edited)

Cary said:
So you are saying we are all wrong and applying science?! Way to ruin a perfectly good thread where we all blame different users.

Yeah no fun, but attributing trail damage to wrong effect isn’t productive. We all like awesome trails. I’m not even a fan a braking bumps. I’m not good enough to always stay off the brakes.

The Wikipedia article on Washboarding gives a better discussion than I can.

Washboarding - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

I think there is room to have a discussion around washboarding effects. We might all come out with a better understanding of maintaining trails. There are already some other comments.

Reactions: 1

RBoardman

· #19 · Jan 18, 2022

Bassmantweed said:
you’re kidding right? Literally every show on the red bull biking channel show riders that purposely throw their rear tires around and skidding down trails. Granted they build or pay to have the trails built but they are setting not great examples for riders that take.

Pros are not skidding. The are drifting and/or unweighting and then applying aggressive downward pressure while cornering to get that roosting effect. In most cases this is not faster (watch EWS racing and you’ll rarely see this on purpose), but it does create from exciting and stylish riding.

And yes, there is a difference.

Reactions: 3

Shipwreck

· #20 · Jan 18, 2022

Years ago I signed my son up for a mountain bike summer camp through Camp Dojo. They rode midpen and UC trails every day. Any time the camp counselor saw a kid skidding on the trail they made them stop and do 15 push-ups. I was impressed. Ever since then, I call out my friends for egregious behaviour... "Dood! - 15 Push Ups!'

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