[miles e]

I have some homemade 29" Klaw "420"'s that are unbeatable for real icy conditions, but am wanting something that will hold up well for mixed conditions. What I mean is frozen ground with icy patches and an inch or two of snow on top; enough to mask most of the ice, but not necessarily all of the rocks.

I don't think I could stomach the (lack of) width on the 700c Hakkapeliitta W240, so I guess I'm stuck with 26" tires. Searching reveals that the Freddies are generally the best option for ultimate traction, but like I mentioned I already have my studded Klaws for that. Given that these tires will encounter plenty of bare rocks/roots/etc, between the Freddies and 294's does either have an advantage in terms of not losing studs?

The Nokian (Suomi) website just raises more questions than it answers. It lists the 294's as having steel studs, but I thought I saw elsewhere that they are now aluminum? It lists the Freddies DH as having "glued" aluminum studs; is this an advantage over the other tires in terms of stud retention? Do the lighter Freddies not have this? :madman:

 

[tscheezy]

The DH Freddy studs sick out about a mile. They had better be glued in. They would suck on anything but total snow/ice coverage due to how far the studs stick out. They would be a nightmare on bare rock.

In my experience, the steel studs stay in the rubber better than the aluminum. If the 294s have in fact gone aluminum (dunno), then the only twist-out difference between those and the Freddies would be in the rubber of the tire. The 294 knobs are broader than those on the Freddies, so that would lead to less deformation and knob-tears. The 294s are also cheaper, so if you did hose them after a while, it would not hurt as much. Break-in is the name of the game. If you commuted on the tires for a solid year, they would hold up well to almost any abuse. I have some ancient 296s, and I can hardly get the studs out even with a studding tool (I keep old hosed tires around to cannibalize studs out of).

I'd say, get the 294s, break them in nice and long, and when you come up on rocks or sections that look dicey, just slow down and take it easy.

 

[TeXe]

What I mean is frozen ground with icy patches and an inch or two of snow on top; enough to mask most of the ice, but not necessarily all of the rocks.

We ride on those kind of conditions several months a year. You will not lose a significant amount of studs because of rocks. So don't worry, keep pushing your bike the way you like. The lighter version of Freddies or the Extreme 294 are both fine. I would take the Freddies because of more air volume.

That beeing said, if you have mostly snowy conditions, most normal knobby tyres will outperform the studded offerings. The knob design of studded tyres just dosn't work on snow. Paradoxical but true, just try it yourself. But on the other hand, if you have more ice, studs are pretty much required.

 

[miles e]

The DH Freddy studs sick out about a mile. They had better be glued in. They would suck on anything but total snow/ice coverage due to how far the studs stick out. They would be a nightmare on bare rock.

Thanks Phillip. Good point about the longer studs on the DH Freddie's. I thought the long studded version had been discontinued altogether, but a closer look at the pictures on the Nokian website suggests that the DH version does still use the longer studs.

In my experience, the steel studs stay in the rubber better than the aluminum. If the 294s have in fact gone aluminum (dunno), then the only twist-out difference between those and the Freddies would be in the rubber of the tire. The 294 knobs are broader than those on the Freddies, so that would lead to less deformation and knob-tears. The 294s are also cheaper, so if you did hose them after a while, it would not hurt as much.

I guess the only thing that made me think they had switched to aluminum studs on the 294's was the Peter White site. The Nokian site still lists them as having "durable steel studs", and the weight didn't seem to decrease, so maybe they are in fact still steel. I'll try checking with both White and Nokian to see who's right.

They're both listed as using the same rubber compound now, so I'm not sure that would make a difference. The idea of the knobs better supporting the studs on the 294's makes a lot of sense though, and of course the cost; advantage: 294. :thumbsup:

 

[miles e]

We ride on those kind of conditions several months a year. You will not lose a significant amount of studs because of rocks. So don't worry, keep pushing your bike the way you like. The lighter version of Freddies or the Extreme 294 are both fine. I would take the Freddies because of more air volume.

Good to hear they've both worked well for you. The Freddies are definitely more appealing because of the volume, but for the reasons Tscheezy listed the 294's seem like they might be more durable. I guess the only way to really find out is to get a set of each and see now they hold up, or just get a set of Freddies and see if they cut it.

That beeing said, if you have mostly snowy conditions, most normal knobby tyres will outperform the studded offerings. The knob design of studded tyres just dosn't work on snow. Paradoxical but true, just try it yourself. But on the other hand, if you have more ice, studs are pretty much required.

I had a set of 296's a few years ago and know what you're talking about. 29" wheels work great in snow, and I have some of the new 2.55 Weirwolf LT's I'll be trying on my SnowCat wheelset if we ever get any significant snow here. Usually it's either straight ice or the light snow/ice conditions I was talking about though.

 

[snowdrifter]

I'm running the Freddies 336 light, and they rule!

 

[miles e]

I'm running the Freddies 336 light, and they rule!

Do you encounter the mixed conditions I'm worried about? No issues with excessive stud loss? Have you used the 294/296's to compare? More info please.

 

[fsrxc]

Thanks Phillip. Good point about the longer studs on the DH Freddie's. I thought the long studded version had been discontinued altogether, but a closer look at the pictures on the Nokian website suggests that the DH version does still use the longer studs.

I guess the only thing that made me think they had switched to aluminum studs on the 294's was the Peter White site. The Nokian site still lists them as having "durable steel studs", and the weight didn't seem to decrease, so maybe they are in fact still steel. I'll try checking with both White and Nokian to see who's right.

They're both listed as using the same rubber compound now, so I'm not sure that would make a difference. The idea of the knobs better supporting the studs on the 294's makes a lot of sense though, and of course the cost; advantage: 294. :thumbsup:

Yeah, I got a pair of 294s a month ago, and their studs seem to have steel sleeves (tires weigh ~1000g too)

 

[dan0]

the 294(6) s have steel & carbide studs and wire reinforced casing, the hakkas have aluminum &carbide, fiber reinforced casing
I've been running the 296s for 3 winters in New Hampshire, nothing but rocks, roots & ice
they rock, almost like riding on dry . I've lost 15 studs on rear and 7 up front. My buddy rides the Hakkas and he's lost alot more studs. In fact hes constantly swaping out his studded tires for regular because he doesnt want to lose any more.
FYI
they dont recomend replacing studs as the holes colud have something in them and/ or the tread could be worn down to the point that pushing in a new stud will cause a puncture

 

[tscheezy]

FYI
they dont recomend replacing studs as the holes colud have something in them and/ or the tread could be worn down to the point that pushing in a new stud will cause a puncture

I have replaced lots of studs with no issues. It is easy to probe the hole before pushing the stud in to check for debris. I don't understand the bit where you talk about tread wear though.

 

[dan0]

I have replaced lots of studs with no issues. It is easy to probe the hole before pushing the stud in to check for debris. I don't understand the bit where you talk about tread wear though.

if the rubber tread wears down and you put a new stud in it could push all the way through and cause a puncture. I dont remember where I read it , I think it was on Nokias web site.
Im on my third year with a set of 296s and Im only missing about 20 studs total so I ll prob try 1 more year on these and then get new ones. I havent noticed any difference in traction with the missing studs

 

[rockyuphill]

I have noticed that the Nokian WXC300's are like a dog on a hardwood floor if you're on round smooth rocks, as long as the rock has some texture they work OK.

 

[tscheezy]

if the rubber tread wears down and you put a new stud in it could push all the way through and cause a puncture.

That is what I was picturing, but it's sorta illogical. The wear they are worrying about would have to occur inside the stud hole ( at the base of the hole in the knob). I think every part of the tire would receive wear except this spot. If debris got into the hole and you rode like that a long time, it could cause wear, but I would rather dig the crap out and replace it with a nice smooth-headed stud than leave the hole open for more wear-causing dreck to get into... etc.

Anyway, I have 296s that are probably about 8 years old at this point (maybe older?) and have replaced studs occassionally throughout the years and have no reservations about putting studs back when possible. (Sometimes the knob itself tears and just won't hold a stud anymore.)

 

[dan0]

That is what I was picturing, but it's sorta illogical. The wear they are worrying about would have to occur inside the stud hole ( at the base of the hole in the knob). I think every part of the tire would receive wear except this spot. If debris got into the hole and you rode like that a long time, it could cause wear, but I would rather dig the crap out and replace it with a nice smooth-headed stud than leave the hole open for more wear-causing dreck to get into... etc.

Anyway, I have 296s that are probably about 8 years old at this point (maybe older?) and have replaced studs occassionally throughout the years and have no reservations about putting studs back when possible. (Sometimes the knob itself tears and just won't hold a stud anymore.)

cant argue with experience
I'll have to give it a try, where did you get the studs?

 

[tscheezy]

I just keep an old, dead 296 tire around and cannibalize the studs out of it. The sidewall finally decomosed, but the studs are in decent shape (carbide-wise). I also ordered a couple of Nokian rubber boot stud kits from Cabelas a few years ago. Those studs are a little longer, but work in a pinch. I prefer the ones out of the tires, though these tend to be pretty rusty and a little harder to work with.

I honestly cannot remember needing to dig more than a few rock fragments out of any knob holes to put the studs in. They always go in well and generally stay put fine afterwards unless the knob is ripped.

 

[miles e]

I'll try checking with both White and Nokian to see who's right.

FWIW, I just heard back from Nokian. They said "steel studs with carbide pin are almost 50% more longevity compared with aluminum studs of Hakka WXC300 and Freddie's SW336, but there's no difference in tearing out."

 

[tscheezy]

The knob design of the tire plays a huge roll in stud retention. The 300s have very skinny, tall, soft knobs and spit studs easily compared to the Freddies which seem to use a higher durometer rubber and larger circumference knobs. Both use the aluminum sleeved studs.

I will have to pop an aluminum stud out and compare it to a steel stud. I seem to remember their heads being slightly different sizes in the past.

 

[SingleTrackHound]

cant argue with experience
I'll have to give it a try, where did you get the studs?

I have lost about 15 carbide studs on my Nokian Extreme 120 this winter in variable snow, ice, and dry condition. At this pace I prolly lose 20 more by spring.

I couldn't find any Nokian studs so I have been using Innova steel studs. They are holding up well. It seems I am continuing to lose Nokian carbide OE studs when go out for ride on variable condition with rocks and roots thrown in but Innova studs are staying in much better. That's my preliminary observation anyways. Yeah, so far no issue for replacing studs and piece of cake installing them with the right tool. I use 2mm allen & Q tip to clean the inside hole when tire is dry. Then quick "puff" with mouth or compressed air.

http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=TL5260
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=TR5266

 

[dan0]

thanks , Im placing my order tonight