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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I wrecked today and the ditch my front wheel hit knocked the bead off the rim and I tried to pump up the tire with my hand pump, but couldn't get it to seal. There was plenty of Stan's inside the tire. I'm wondering, do most of you carry C02 instead of a pump and would that give me enough pressure to seal the bead? Normally my foot pump at home can seal the bead no problem, but the hand pump just doesn't have the power it seems.

thx for any input.
 

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Un-impressed with Stan's No-tubes.

Recently on a night ride a girl that I sometimes ride with hit a rock she didn't see, causing her to crash, at quite a slow speed. In fact she was going too slow. A little more momentum and it probably wouldn't have thrown her of the bike. I was riding directly behind her. Anyway, she had pulled the front tire off the bead with the impact as her wheel twisted sidewards. She has non-tubeless wheels and rims treated with Stan's No-tubes kits. There were bits of grass caught between the rim and tire bead. The tire pumped up fine though. This is not the first time I have read/seen this type of thing happening. I think the sealent is fine for use with UST rims and tires to seal punctures but I think the whole No Tubes system is unsafe.

Ronnie.
 

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Doesntplaywellwithmorons!
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this has been going on for years now. Before he (stan) had rubber strips and was just selling kits with strapping tape and such, there was a guy on the old format forums who conducted an EXHAUSTING test between UST and non-UST mavic Deemax rims, with a variety of UST and stan's notube converted non-UST tires. He did this using a DH bike, on a DH course over a weekend. Must have tested like 20 different tire/rim combos and every instance of a stan's setup, at the so called "low pressures" stan says to use (and which DH riders would typically run their tires anyways, due to larger casing volumes and stronger casings for that matter), he'd get the tires blowing off the rim under any decent side load. Of course pumping the tires to a higher pressure only resulted in tires detonating off the rim when standing still (and quite a few people have reported the latter phenomena on mtbr over the years). There's been other cases of riders losing tires under moderate side loads (usually going down a steep hill or someplace else you REALLY REALLY do not want your tire leaving the rim) reported on here, but that DH test is the one I remember as being the more extensive independant testing done (independant as in, not someone sponsored by stan, paid by stan, having stan advertise in their magazine, or another liquid sealant conversion tubeless competitor).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Frankly, Stan's had nothing to do with my crash today...my front wheel went down in a big hole and there was nothing to be done. I'm surprised my rim isn't bent and not surprised the bead came off the rim....the same thing has happened in my car on a race track. No big deal. I just want to put it back on....This is why I addressed the topic to Stan's users...so I could get advice on best way to remount the tire...C02 or not?
 

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EJBlur said:
Frankly, Stan's had nothing to do with my crash today...my front wheel went down in a big hole and there was nothing to be done. I'm surprised my rim isn't bent and not surprised the bead came off the rim....the same thing has happened in my car on a race track. No big deal. I just want to put it back on....This is why I addressed the topic to Stan's users...so I could get advice on best way to remount the tire...C02 or not?
If you had a tube in there you'd have no problem pumping up the tire. I pump up my UST tires on Mavic XM819 (UST) rims with a very small Crank Bros. Power Pump.( The whole thing is about 6" long.) Non tubeless tires and rims are meant for tubes. I know its my opinion, but I feel/have seen that they are more likely to come of the rim without tubes and therefore are unsafe.

Ronnie.
 

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I love Pisgah
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Simple. Just carry a tube to always be able to ride out. When I race with Stans, I've stopped carrying one. But for a normal ride, one should always carry one..just for this reason.
 

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Happend to me..

EJBlur said:
I wrecked today and the ditch my front wheel hit knocked the bead off the rim and I tried to pump up the tire with my hand pump, but couldn't get it to seal. There was plenty of Stan's inside the tire. I'm wondering, do most of you carry C02 instead of a pump and would that give me enough pressure to seal the bead? Normally my foot pump at home can seal the bead no problem, but the hand pump just doesn't have the power it seems.

thx for any input.
This happend to me about 6 weeks ago.. It was a fast down hill last sec. sharp turn.. Wheel popped off the rim and lost air (but I still made the turn it was about 5 sec. later I realized I didn't have air in the front wheel).
For this I just used my small hand pump and was fine (has two setting large vol. and high pressure).
Anway, I think if I didn't have the stans, I don't think it would of sealed so quickly - because it popped on right away.

Hope that helps,
 

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noMAD man
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"Big Air" canister works well.

EJBlur said:
I wrecked today and the ditch my front wheel hit knocked the bead off the rim and I tried to pump up the tire with my hand pump, but couldn't get it to seal. There was plenty of Stan's inside the tire. I'm wondering, do most of you carry C02 instead of a pump and would that give me enough pressure to seal the bead? Normally my foot pump at home can seal the bead no problem, but the hand pump just doesn't have the power it seems.

thx for any input.
Air Innovations makes a slightly larger canister that I carry in my Camelback called Big Air. It's a butane or other flammable gas medium that will most always blow up a tubeless tire on the trail. No, it won't really blow up, LOL, but it will inflate. The stuff is totally safe for bike use. Just don't take a butt break while you're fixing your flat. Most bike shops have it or can get it--not much more expensive than standard Air Innovations CO2 cartridges.
 

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wait a minute....
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EJBlur said:
Frankly, Stan's had nothing to do with my crash today...my front wheel went down in a big hole and there was nothing to be done. I'm surprised my rim isn't bent and not surprised the bead came off the rim....the same thing has happened in my car on a race track. No big deal. I just want to put it back on....This is why I addressed the topic to Stan's users...so I could get advice on best way to remount the tire...C02 or not?
Icrashed a few months back and popped the bead loose on mine and co2 would not seat it.I used a tube. they were crossmax wheels with mythos tires and no rimstrip.since then I got a set of stans wheels and run the same tires on them. I have crashed twice with these wheels and hit lots of rocks ,holes,roots. I have had no loss of air in 2 months and they roll noticably easier than any combination I have tried. I feel pretty safe on these rims as they are made for this. It is best to carry a tube anyway.
 

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noMAD man
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Well, I'm impressed (here we go again)

Ronnie said:
Recently on a night ride a girl that I sometimes ride with hit a rock she didn't see, causing her to crash, at quite a slow speed. In fact she was going too slow. A little more momentum and it probably wouldn't have thrown her of the bike. I was riding directly behind her. Anyway, she had pulled the front tire off the bead with the impact as her wheel twisted sidewards. She has non-tubeless wheels and rims treated with Stan's No-tubes kits. There were bits of grass caught between the rim and tire bead. The tire pumped up fine though. This is not the first time I have read/seen this type of thing happening. I think the sealent is fine for use with UST rims and tires to seal punctures but I think the whole No Tubes system is unsafe.

Ronnie.
Yes, there are conventional tires that are absolutely not good candidates for running Stan's tubeless system. Some of them are too small, or have too flimsy a sidewall, or don't have a sufficient bead for sealing to the rim no matter what one does. Stan does make some recommendations and warns against some tires, but I guess no one has actually tested every conventional tire and rim combo to qualify everything--an impossible feat anyway. I agree that Stan should warn a little more strongly about this factor. I think the bottom line is that there are many conventional tires under the 2.2--2.3 size range that should not be run in a tubeless manner. People not very, very familiar with their bikes or the Stan's tubeless system should probably not run conventional tires in this size range...period. With the wide range of affordable and quality UST tires available now, why should they--even the weight has come down. Riders running bigger conventional tires from 2.3 on up can usually do this without problems as long as they run the strip system. As indicated by some of these posts, it's most always the front tire that tries to burp or separate in an extreme situation. I run a strip in the front even with a 2.5 conventional tire on a UST rim. This setup has been totally bombproof. We've been using and experimenting with tubeless at our shop for nearly 3 years now--even from the days of the "roll-your-own" tape and mold builder systems. Todays system run within reasonable parameters is safe and reliable. One of the other caveats about this system is user error which is very hard to identify over the internet. We've had riders come back in the shop with a tubeless bead problem, and upon checking the air pressure on the other tubeless tire that was still on the bike, we found extremely low pressure--like maybe 20 psi. When asked when the last time they checked their air pressure...they would respond a week or two ago. Many riders try to treat their bikes like they do their cars. In other words, only when there's a problem. Now I'm not saying that everyone who has had a problem with their tubeless system is a mechanical idiot. Working at a shop, I can say there are many out there who have no business with any slightly more technical system or hardware on their bikes. They are clueless when it comes to working on or maintaining some of the aspects of their bikes. And heaven help them when they've tried to install something like a Stan's system.
For Stan's tubeless use, I'd recommend these guidelines for realiability and safety:
1. Unless you really know what you're doing and are willing to experiment, stay away from conventional tires smaller than 2.3--even if using UST rims.
2. Using 2.3 and bigger conventional tires will "usually" produce total reliability on either type of rim.
3. Using 2.1 and bigger UST tires on any rim will just about guarantee bombproof reliability.
4. Using 2.5 and bigger conventional tires on any rim will just about guarantee bombproof reliability.
5. Using UST tires on UST rims will be bombproof (if system installation and decent air pressure are correct).
6. There is more latitude from the above comments on the rear wheel vs. the front wheel. The front wheel is usually the most challenge tire/rim issue in extreme conditions.
7. Service the Stan's fluid occassionally--depending on temperature, at least every 2-3 months.
Tubeless setups properly executed are one of the best things that has happened to mountainbiking--better traction and just about flatproof. Tubed tires still work...so do hardtail bicycles. I want something better.
 

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AntiLoc said:
CO2 works great for getting the bead to seal quickly trailside.
I love the CO2 set-ups. I used a couple of cartridges today even though I had my floor pump. It was 100f outside and I didn't feel like pumping up a tire.

BTW, you can buy the cartridges at Wally World for 50 cents each compared to $2 a pop at your LBS. They are stocked w/ the air rifles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Duckman said:
Simple. Just carry a tube to always be able to ride out. When I race with Stans, I've stopped carrying one. But for a normal ride, one should always carry one..just for this reason.
Yes, I had a tube and it was simple enough to put it in...was just wondering if C02 would make it possible to reseat the bead in the field without having to resort to a tube.
 

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CO2 is iffy

EJBlur said:
Frankly, Stan's had nothing to do with my crash today...my front wheel went down in a big hole and there was nothing to be done. I'm surprised my rim isn't bent and not surprised the bead came off the rim....the same thing has happened in my car on a race track. No big deal. I just want to put it back on....This is why I addressed the topic to Stan's users...so I could get advice on best way to remount the tire...C02 or not?
I have had a few flats using stans. I found it faster and less painful to carry the tube vice trying to reseat the bead on the trail. Dirt in the bead rim interface and the fact that you have a limited air supply make it less than reliable. I would tube it till I got home and reseal it there. Careful with CO2 and stans. It will harden the sealant into a ball after a while. If you use CO2, empty it and replace with air at next chance. Stan has ackowledged this problem.
 

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screamer
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CO2 worked for me...

... when my 10-year-old floor pump wouldn't (obviously this was at home & not trailside). But what do you all make of this concern that CO2 creates little sealant turdlets, thereby negating any benefits of puncture resistance?
 

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noMAD man
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Can you locate the biggest hole(s)?

ddavis said:
heh, speaking of stans (btw, i think its great), i've been havin myself quite a time seeing if i can get a used rather "holy" tire re-sealed..anyon got some clues?
Depending on the tire, if you've really got a nasty hole (not a slash), you can locate the hole and actually patch it on the inside just like you do a tube. If it's a tubeless tire, you can be guaranteed that the patch deal will work. If not, some conventional tires will still take the patch and work--just depends on the type and texture of the rubber inside. There's another method I've thought about but haven't had the situation come up where I needed it. Since Stan's will seal most anything if the leak isn't too big, I might try a piece of duct tape at the location of the hole on the inside. As the duct tape moistens and starts losing its grip, the Stan's will slowly seal the spot in the tire as the area of the hole is slowly exposed by the degrading duct tape. This gives the sealant a chance to seal the hole more gradually. As I said, Stan's is capable of sealing some mighty large punctures if the pressure isn't too high and the hole too big.
 
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