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Discussion starter · #42 ·
b-kul said:
i do think it is a natural process but it is being helped along by humans. and even if it is all bs it would still be great to get an economy that isnt based around oil.
The problem is China and India are growing like crazy with zero disregard for the environment and we will effectivly find our postiions reversed if this continues.
But ther are real area's we SHOULD be worried about that are not debated. one is our treatment of the ocean via trash.



So lets focus on what we know are problems and attack them instead.
 
My son and I had a discussion earlier about this subject. I use the word "discussion" loosely because he is 8yrs old. He started telling me about this "Man vs Food" episode and I cut him off. I told him he can watch it but I don't like it. When he asked why I told him look up how many people we have hungry our country while this guy is eating a 10 pound burger. He said he wouldn't watch the show anymore...a small victory.
 
b-kul said:
i do think it is a natural process but it is being helped along by humans. and even if it is all bs it would still be great to get an economy that isnt based around oil.
Yeah, that would be cool. But what happens when the government starts charging taxes and limiting the amount of energy you consume even before there is an alternative. That is insanity. Modern society is based on energy. We'd all be cave men. We wouldnt even have bikes :(
 
bing! said:
Yeah, that would be cool. But what happens when the government starts charging taxes and limiting the amount of energy you consume even before there is an alternative. That is insanity. Modern society is based on energy. We'd all be cave men. We wouldnt even have bikes :(
idk but it has to happen sooner or latter, we are at peak oil.
 
b-kul said:
idk but it has to happen sooner or latter, we are at peak oil.
if we run out, we run out, why does the government have to increase its taxes on energy, and give it to other countries?

the whole thing is a mess. energy sources are getting depleted, but the issue is being high jacked by closet communists, greedy capitalists, power hungry politicians and granola munchers, not solving the problem, just making things worse.

the only real solution is to find a reliable and reasonable alternative energy source or revert back to the stone ages. otherwise, I think AG should just STFU.
 
Yep, The pinnacle and proof in Al Gore's movie was based around those two charts. One that showed climate temperature, and the other co2 levels. They both clearly rise and fall together but... If he would have once showed the two, one on top of the other, he wouldn't have had a story for his movie because co2 rises because of, and slightly after the temps go up, and not the other way around as the movie led us to believe.
The IPCC should be dismantled, and government funding to support research for global warming stopped. If a scientist can get money to fund warming research, but can't get funded to prove cooling, what do you expect the evedince to show?
Not that long ago our government wouldn't even say the words "global warming" even thou I was attending New Years Parties in my shorts it was so warm and it was clearly warmer than what was norm. Now they figured out a way to create more jobs, more taxes and it seems it's all they wanna talk about even thou it's now getting cooler. Back in the 70's it was OH NO, an ice age is coming because it was colder than norm. It's a cycle, not a way to make movies, create taxes, or fool people. Do some research of your own if you don't want to believe me, and don't buy into the hoopla.
Many people, scientists, phd's whatever predicted that warming would end as the solar cycle started to slow and leave it's maximum phase, which was 20 to 50 sun spots daily. When the sun goes blank, no sun spots, minimum phase, that is the end of a cycle and when sun spots start to appear again, it's the start of the next cycle. After a VERY long blank sun we are now into solar cycle 24, and it has been REALLY slow and uneventful, much more than norm, so we're most certainly in for colder temps.
 
Where I disagree (with a surprising number of y'all): That because global warming/cooling is a natural process then we should ignore our impact on it. I agree it is a natural process, but scientists don't know how much of the current climate change is being caused by human activity. (It's been changing since the industrial revolution though). So if we are causing an unnatural tide in the timing of climate change it could have unpredictable consequences. We just don't know.
Second disagreement: India and China aren't going to change so we mustn't in order to remain competitive. It's a crappy but true statement. However, I believe that we can get off coal and oil:
1)Through nuclear power.
2) Continue to invest in a green economy, make the technology ultimately more affordable, and spread it at least to our own masses.

So in summary, we shouldn't ignore global warming. It is occurring and it is probably stoked by human activity, thereby disrupting a natural tide with unpredictable affect.
 
Discussion starter · #50 ·
The real deciding factor here is Themeat And I are actually agreeing, that NEVER happens.

Where I disagree (with a surprising number of y'all): That because global warming/cooling is a natural process then we should ignore our impact on it. I agree it is a natural process, but scientists don't know how much of the current climate change is being caused by human activity. (It's been changing since the industrial revolution though). So if we are causing an unnatural tide in the timing of climate change it could have unpredictable consequences. We just don't know.
Second disagreement: India and China aren't going to change so we mustn't in order to remain competitive. It's a crappy but true statement. However, I believe that we can get off coal and oil:
Here is the problem, nobody is saying we should not take precautions and take the environment into consideration. But we have to remain competitive in the process, we already have standards that china and india probably will not equal for the next decade at least, and by further putting pressure on ourselves to where we cannot remain competitive to the world. Simple fact is we are being sold out on every level by those in office.
1)Through nuclear power.
2) Continue to invest in a green economy, make the technology ultimately more affordable, and spread it at least to our own masses.
3)Nuclear power is the key
Methenal is another door we can open, and should be opening. After Japan we really need to really need to rethink nuclear energy, this is somethign that can be catostrophic for the entire world, I will pass thanks.
 
Blurr said:
The real deciding factor here is Themeat And I are actually agreeing, that NEVER happens.

Here is the problem, nobody is saying we should not take precautions and take the environment into consideration. But we have to remain competitive in the process, we already have standards that china and india probably will not equal for the next decade at least, and by further putting pressure on ourselves to where we cannot remain competitive to the world. Simple fact is we are being sold out on every level by those in office.

Methenal is another door we can open, and should be opening. After Japan we really need to really need to rethink nuclear energy, this is somethign that can be catostrophic for the entire world, I will pass thanks.
I don't know. It sounded like some complete denial in some. Something about "Ocean level rise-hasn't happened" etc.:confused: We must continue to advance nuclear power. It is tragic what occurred in Japan, both on the objective tragedy and subjective view of nuclear energy. My point is that we CAN remain competitive and advance toward an environmentally sustainable society. It will require nuclear power though, there's just no other way. :thumbsup:
 
In reply to your PM

ill agree we cut down lots of trees and dig up lots of coal. im from pennsylvania and ive see my share of both right around my dads property to be exact - hate it !! but my dad wouldnt have been self-employed as a custom cabinet builder for the last 50yrs if we didnt do it... and he uses the coal to heat his house during the winter.. but ive seen the effects of both those issues first hand. ya ever drink sulfar water. its pretty icky.. thats from the coal stripping that destroys the limestone filters (mother earths natural filter) yes we dig things up, cut things down, pollute things, dont recycle enough etc...
So you're dad can only get employment as a cabinet builder? BTW, who said anything about being against the lumber industry? I never did. Lumber is a renewable. Coal and oil isn't.

Have I ever seen hard water? Well, guessing that a good part of my family is from West Virginia, I suspect I've seen it once or twice. 'Specialy out in the sticks.

but as for climate change/global warming/new ice age.. i personally dont see us having all that much of a hand in it...
Really? So millions to billions of people pumping out CO2 for the 100+ yrs doesn't have any impact whatsoever.

they proven that the earth puts out more harmful gases itself (volcanoes etc.) than we will ever put into the enviroment thats supposedly destroying the ozone
Google is your friend. I suggest you use it. :bluefrown:

Do the Earth's volcanoes emit more CO2 than human activities? Research findings indicate that the answer to this frequently asked question is a clear and unequivocal, "No." Human activities, responsible for some 36,300 million metric tons of CO2 emissions in 2008 [Le Quéré et al., 2009], release at least a hundred times more CO2 annually than all the world's degassing subaerial and submarine volcanoes (Gerlach, 2010).

And as far as the ozone layer. This was posted on Yahoo yesterday.

The depletion of the ozone layer shielding Earth from damaging ultraviolet rays has reached an unprecedented low over the Arctic this spring because of harmful chemicals and a cold winter, the U.N. weather agency said Tuesday.

and what about those other 2/3/4 ice ages this earth has gone thru over the last zillion years.. how do you explain those when there where NO HUMANS (or very very few) around to cause them ?? we will never stop MOTHER EARTH from doing her thing. just look at japan.. you think we could have stopped that earth quake even if we had known it was coming ? do you think they would have been able to evac quick enough ?
the coming ICE AGE (sure dont see no ice age coming where i live anytime soon- south arizona...) wont be because of us .... all we as humans are doing is destroying the outside of the earth making it harder to live here day by day (garbage, pollution,population,polluting water ways etc.)
I honestly don't know where to start with this as I feel stupider for reading it. 1: earth hasn't been around for a "zillion" yrs. Hell, our best estimates doesn't even place the universe at that age. 2: Ice ages and earth quakes are natural events that we have NO control over so no, I do not believe we could've stopped them. BUT we can prepare for them. We design structures to try to withstand these quakes. I'm sure the death toll would've been MUCH higher w/o these improvements over the yrs. 3: are you saying that we SHOULDN'T even TRY to evac people if we have forewarning? Or are you one of these nuts that have an unrealistic expectation of what science and engineering can do? 4) Yes. I agree that our consumption on this planet is having an adverse affect and that INCLUDES GW.

so how do you propose we stop all this ?
Are you asking me if I have all the answers? I don't.

our goverment sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it and all the greedy big wigs (gas/oil/coal/trees/etc) sure aint gonna do a dam thing about it..
Wow, really? You absolutely sure about that? I guess I'll have to tell my boss about this. I think he'll be disappointed. Sure hope it doesn't affect my performance evaluation since I work for the Dept of Energy managing Smart Grid research projects. You know, so the lights will stay on. Guess I'll have to inform our guy's in our Clean Coal research divison as well as the researchers working on carbon sequestration here at the lab that they "sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it". Also, I'll have to inform the companies that we work with in this research, (Utility companies, private corporations, etc) that they "sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it" either. I'm sure they'll be disappointed at all the money that they're p1ssing away on this.

GOD gave us FREE WILL and most humans/all humans abuse that freedom in a bad way. weve become COMPLACENT and thats gonna be the end of us all.. (do you believe in GOD ?)
1: There's no proof that any "god" had anything to do with our free will. That's a belief. If you choose to believe that, I'm happy for you. 2: What does my personal belief's, or anyone else's for that matter, have to do with any of this?

so all you can do is keep riding your bicycle (like i have been now) to work etc. and do your tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny part in helping the environment
And I did that this morning @ 5am and was in my office @ 6am being the fat, lazy, rich government worker I am. Or so some claim. :bluefrown:
 
Discussion starter · #53 · (Edited)
stumblemumble said:
I don't know. It sounded like some complete denial in some. Something about "Ocean level rise-hasn't happened" etc.:confused: We must continue to advance nuclear power. It is tragic what occurred in Japan, both on the objective tragedy and subjective view of nuclear energy. My point is that we CAN remain competitive and advance toward an environmentally sustainable society. It will require nuclear power though, there's just no other way. :thumbsup:
Its just not worth it, in three major accidents two will have killed hundreds of thousands dying miserable death over the period of a few years, that is not a good record I dont care what anyone says. Consider that the standards the nuclear plant in Japan were built to were absolutely incredible to say the least and we still have a disaster, that is not good, not good at all. We cannot go back, and while we can live with many things we do to the world, that is 200 years of radiation to deal with when there is an accident. :nono:
 
Okay. When I was growing up in the 70's, we looked like a power house of industry, design, manufacturing, etc. Mind you, I was born in '68, so the world was pretty new to my eyes. Yes, Love Canal, ridiculously poor quality cars, design issues like the Ford Pinto, etc, I know....

The message I got was that America was a power house, the place other folks who lived abroad, longed to send their kids for a great education. The place where all the significant advances in technology happened, the place where ANYTHING was possible.

We are at a pivotal point in the future of our existence, scratch that, our grand (or great grand) kids existence, on this planet.

And what we've become disgusts me. We now farm out all manufacturing since no one here is willing to PAY for anything, it has to be the cheapest price first, all other things are secondary. We have people who profit from guessing that gas prices *might* go up, and invest in gas futures, thus affecting prices, today, even if they aren't actually going up on their own.

Scientific development is a joke, all tied to how much money can be made, instead of how much GOOD an advance can do.

Development of design, is now specifically targeted at making things last just long enough to make it past the warranty period. Literally, they teach classes on "Designed obsolescence". Really? What ever happened to making something "built to last" Remember that concept?

We have a bunch of incredibly bright minds being halted by commercial interests fearing their bottom line. Oil companies want to make money till the end of oil. I guess they haven't realized that they can make money on what comes next, but only if they start working on it now.

But no, that would cost money now, and since the top dogs all NEED to make 100 million dollars this year in order to "secure their future", that can't happen, besides, they'd look like a bunch of crystal clutching hippies if they started really and actually looking into alternative energies, can't allow that, Biff at their private, exclusive country club might smirk at them, or worse, vote that they not be allowed back in next year......

Even the name, "Alternative Energy" puts it in the same scorned category as "Alternative Medicine", some weird thing that should be joked about while shoveling cheap food in your maw at the Old Country Buffet.

If we really have or had all this promise, and all these big things that made the world better, really came from us, and folks like us, where is it now? Why or when, did we allow our great nation to be overrun by commercial interests who favor their own immediate wealth, over the continued existence of us, as a species.

Folks wanting to push this sort of momentum forward are marginalized as freaks. If, after the turn of the 19th century, someone had had the brilliant idea of harnessing the suns power, the winds power, tidal power, etc, by today, we'd be right where we are, only without the blight of needing to find a different source anytime soon. Instead, we'd be consumed with trying to keep our mother earth as healthy as possible, since we'd be in full realization that her continued existence and state well of being, was making ours, possible.

Instead, some lazy moron found oil, and here we are, running out, with no one of sufficient sway to chart a new course until it happens, and then, it'll be too late. Owing primarily to the fact that we as a nation, need everything now, we won't be made to wait.

I don't worship Obama, but I so wish he'd come in, planning on being a one termer, and given us the leadership and change we need so badly. Big business, all of you pay your share, no more tax breaks for your own personal enrichment. Don't you love how all the tax breaks they've been getting, are doing so much for us? Notice all those jobs being created by the heralded extension of the "Bush era" tax cuts? Yep, didn't think you would. Funny how it works, "if we were allowed to keep our money, we'd create jobs" Um, yeah, you have been, and you ain't. :skep:

So, what will our great great grandchildren be doing? Living in caves, eating grubs I'm guessing, while those wealthy enough to afford to live on Mars, party it up.

Rant over.
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
your first half was great, then you went off on a tangent that made no sense.
Oil companies spend hundreds of millions on alternative energy research,http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/exxon-bets-on-algae-first-major-biofuel-investment.php now IM not saying more could not come from it, IM just saying that they do, the government also gives out millions upon millions in research grants every year in various area's, many dead ends, many we simply do not know of yet. However it does not help when people elect a president who is bound and determined to intentionally bankrupt America now ask yourself, what kind of a person flat out states he intentionally wants to make things hard on the American people?
As for the Bush Era tax cuts, if they do not work, then how come we are supposedly out of our recession? Simple fact of hte matter is we pay the worlds highest business tax rates and start up costs in the WESTERN WORLD. http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/22917.html And as a business owner myself I can state with confidence if the government lowerd some of its prices (workers comp prices are 43 percent for the industry I am primarily involved in) we could easily expand, instead, they make it very hard to do business in this country.
Now we do not make sense in many area's I will admit, for the life of me, and for all the research I have done I cannot find out why the Solar 1 & 2 projects were scrapped, which worked incredibly well as near as I can find, if anyone has anything different please let me know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Solar_Project

What you can do on your own, and I actually built a small version, shows promise mind you as a free heat assistance in your home and works fairly well heating your hot water note that video is not mine. My first is just a small test box, my larger one will use concave glass such as that used in a greenhouse for increased heat.
It all helps, so why not?
 
MendonCycleSmith, WOW that's good, and couldn't agree more. Kinda makes me happy when things get worse b/c I believe the only way it's gonna change for the better is if it gets worse in a bigger, more shocking way. Seems that the divide is growing so we'll see. You'd think after 8 years of Bush we'd learn but apparently not.

Nuclear power has some great potential but until we know more about fusion, fission is a bad choice and we are learning that the hard way. Sure we can use more nuclear power to help end our dependence on oil, coal, but at what cost? I guess if you can afford a space suit to avoid radition you can leave your house. Sorry but things break, sh@t happens, and people make mistakes, that we know. So until we have a better understanding, the length/amount of damage potential is WAY to great and nuclear shouldn't even be a consideration. I mean come on. Let's make this stuff that we don't really understand but know can kill all life for for hundreds of years to come, and not have a good solid plan to dispose of or reverse it's effects. Not a good plan IMO. Maybe a quick, easy fix for today, but what about tomorrow? Let's put it in a container and bury it deep in the earth, or put some at the bottom of the ocean. After a few thousand years we're safe. aaah we think. Or keep spent rods in cold, running water for at least a hundred years. Sure, nothing can go wrong there, aaah we hope. The fact is that we just don't have a good plan to deal with the after, just know it could benifit us now. It would be sad and tragic to see people getting sick and/or dying from those effects if we didn't know the dangers and did it any way, but to do it knowing would/does make us stupid. We talk about safe levels but again, we just don't know, and as far as we know the "safe" levels might be killing us already. But if we say it enough times the masses will believe. After all, our leaders would never lie to us, right?

The ozone loss is growing because of the colder temps but that was barely mentioned once in either bbc's or msnbc's articles. Somehow it gets twisted into all the other possible man made reasons for it but even the article states it's b/c of cold. Hello. Anyone payin attention to this? The best is when I hear how the colder temps are caused by global warming. Talk about grabbing for straws.
Just another happy thought. We know that earthquakes and volcanic activity increase at the begining, and at the end of EVERY warm interglacial period. Coincidence?
 
theMeat said:
Kinda makes me happy when things get worse b/c I believe the only way it's gonna change for the better is if it gets worse in a bigger, more shocking way.
That says it all right there. Granola munchers want to do things their way at all cost. No middle ground, no compromise, no thought. Get out of the way or be mowed down by the granola bus. Youve musta danced the jig when the tsunami hit them nuclear reactors :(

Oil makes us lazy? How about looking at life at the turn of the century and see how much you like that. Life expectancy at a ripe old 49. We'd still be killing whales for lamp oil and the major mode of transport would be coal fired steam engines. It takes energy to manufacture medicine, vaccines, medical equipment and fuel ambulances. Without oil, youd still be filling your teeth with mercury alloy. Oil transports food from the farm to the market, workers to factories, smelt steel, weave cotton, build homes, make clothes, most everything.

What is absurd is the hypocrisy of those that continue to flourish in a life fueled by energy, rile against it and in the same breath orders a mocha macchiato made with coffee beans that were flown 10,000 oil burning planet warming miles. I remember Ted Kennedy throwing a fit when he found out that windmills were going to be erected at Cape Cod, ruining his view. I do my part, I recycle, I drive a put-put, toned down flying for leisure, and I see no value trying to save the planet by cutting off its fuel supply. Walk the walk. Talk is cheap. Change your life first before others.

Here is another example of cluelessness. http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/politics&id=8056167 Bear in mind, how much energy is required to produce a new car? Really? Not to mention that the guy is going to get into debt by about $ 25,000 just to feel good about another 5 miles mpg.

"Obama needled one questioner who asked about gas prices, now averaging close to $3.70 a gallon nationwide, and suggested that the gentleman consider getting rid of his gas-guzzling vehicle. If you're complaining about the price of gas and you're only getting 8 miles a gallon, you know," Obama said laughingly. "You might want to think about a trade-in."

If the government doesnt want people to drive, they should build a transport system that makes it impractical to drive. You know, carrot not stick.

Back on topic, people who grow/forage their own food, hunt and fish usually put more value in food than others. You dont waste what you worked hard to put on the plate. And it saves the planet too by burning less oil and less industrial farming.
 
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