The problem is China and India are growing like crazy with zero disregard for the environment and we will effectivly find our postiions reversed if this continues.b-kul said:i do think it is a natural process but it is being helped along by humans. and even if it is all bs it would still be great to get an economy that isnt based around oil.
Yeah, that would be cool. But what happens when the government starts charging taxes and limiting the amount of energy you consume even before there is an alternative. That is insanity. Modern society is based on energy. We'd all be cave men. We wouldnt even have bikesb-kul said:i do think it is a natural process but it is being helped along by humans. and even if it is all bs it would still be great to get an economy that isnt based around oil.
idk but it has to happen sooner or latter, we are at peak oil.bing! said:Yeah, that would be cool. But what happens when the government starts charging taxes and limiting the amount of energy you consume even before there is an alternative. That is insanity. Modern society is based on energy. We'd all be cave men. We wouldnt even have bikes
if we run out, we run out, why does the government have to increase its taxes on energy, and give it to other countries?b-kul said:idk but it has to happen sooner or latter, we are at peak oil.
Here is the problem, nobody is saying we should not take precautions and take the environment into consideration. But we have to remain competitive in the process, we already have standards that china and india probably will not equal for the next decade at least, and by further putting pressure on ourselves to where we cannot remain competitive to the world. Simple fact is we are being sold out on every level by those in office.Where I disagree (with a surprising number of y'all): That because global warming/cooling is a natural process then we should ignore our impact on it. I agree it is a natural process, but scientists don't know how much of the current climate change is being caused by human activity. (It's been changing since the industrial revolution though). So if we are causing an unnatural tide in the timing of climate change it could have unpredictable consequences. We just don't know.
Second disagreement: India and China aren't going to change so we mustn't in order to remain competitive. It's a crappy but true statement. However, I believe that we can get off coal and oil:
Methenal is another door we can open, and should be opening. After Japan we really need to really need to rethink nuclear energy, this is somethign that can be catostrophic for the entire world, I will pass thanks.1)Through nuclear power.
2) Continue to invest in a green economy, make the technology ultimately more affordable, and spread it at least to our own masses.
3)Nuclear power is the key
I don't know. It sounded like some complete denial in some. Something about "Ocean level rise-hasn't happened" etc. We must continue to advance nuclear power. It is tragic what occurred in Japan, both on the objective tragedy and subjective view of nuclear energy. My point is that we CAN remain competitive and advance toward an environmentally sustainable society. It will require nuclear power though, there's just no other way. :thumbsup:Blurr said:The real deciding factor here is Themeat And I are actually agreeing, that NEVER happens.
Here is the problem, nobody is saying we should not take precautions and take the environment into consideration. But we have to remain competitive in the process, we already have standards that china and india probably will not equal for the next decade at least, and by further putting pressure on ourselves to where we cannot remain competitive to the world. Simple fact is we are being sold out on every level by those in office.
Methenal is another door we can open, and should be opening. After Japan we really need to really need to rethink nuclear energy, this is somethign that can be catostrophic for the entire world, I will pass thanks.
So you're dad can only get employment as a cabinet builder? BTW, who said anything about being against the lumber industry? I never did. Lumber is a renewable. Coal and oil isn't.ill agree we cut down lots of trees and dig up lots of coal. im from pennsylvania and ive see my share of both right around my dads property to be exact - hate it !! but my dad wouldnt have been self-employed as a custom cabinet builder for the last 50yrs if we didnt do it... and he uses the coal to heat his house during the winter.. but ive seen the effects of both those issues first hand. ya ever drink sulfar water. its pretty icky.. thats from the coal stripping that destroys the limestone filters (mother earths natural filter) yes we dig things up, cut things down, pollute things, dont recycle enough etc...
Really? So millions to billions of people pumping out CO2 for the 100+ yrs doesn't have any impact whatsoever.but as for climate change/global warming/new ice age.. i personally dont see us having all that much of a hand in it...
Google is your friend. I suggest you use it. :bluefrown:they proven that the earth puts out more harmful gases itself (volcanoes etc.) than we will ever put into the enviroment thats supposedly destroying the ozone
I honestly don't know where to start with this as I feel stupider for reading it. 1: earth hasn't been around for a "zillion" yrs. Hell, our best estimates doesn't even place the universe at that age. 2: Ice ages and earth quakes are natural events that we have NO control over so no, I do not believe we could've stopped them. BUT we can prepare for them. We design structures to try to withstand these quakes. I'm sure the death toll would've been MUCH higher w/o these improvements over the yrs. 3: are you saying that we SHOULDN'T even TRY to evac people if we have forewarning? Or are you one of these nuts that have an unrealistic expectation of what science and engineering can do? 4) Yes. I agree that our consumption on this planet is having an adverse affect and that INCLUDES GW.and what about those other 2/3/4 ice ages this earth has gone thru over the last zillion years.. how do you explain those when there where NO HUMANS (or very very few) around to cause them ?? we will never stop MOTHER EARTH from doing her thing. just look at japan.. you think we could have stopped that earth quake even if we had known it was coming ? do you think they would have been able to evac quick enough ?
the coming ICE AGE (sure dont see no ice age coming where i live anytime soon- south arizona...) wont be because of us .... all we as humans are doing is destroying the outside of the earth making it harder to live here day by day (garbage, pollution,population,polluting water ways etc.)
Are you asking me if I have all the answers? I don't.so how do you propose we stop all this ?
Wow, really? You absolutely sure about that? I guess I'll have to tell my boss about this. I think he'll be disappointed. Sure hope it doesn't affect my performance evaluation since I work for the Dept of Energy managing Smart Grid research projects. You know, so the lights will stay on. Guess I'll have to inform our guy's in our Clean Coal research divison as well as the researchers working on carbon sequestration here at the lab that they "sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it". Also, I'll have to inform the companies that we work with in this research, (Utility companies, private corporations, etc) that they "sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it" either. I'm sure they'll be disappointed at all the money that they're p1ssing away on this.our goverment sure aint gonna do a dam thing about any of it and all the greedy big wigs (gas/oil/coal/trees/etc) sure aint gonna do a dam thing about it..
1: There's no proof that any "god" had anything to do with our free will. That's a belief. If you choose to believe that, I'm happy for you. 2: What does my personal belief's, or anyone else's for that matter, have to do with any of this?GOD gave us FREE WILL and most humans/all humans abuse that freedom in a bad way. weve become COMPLACENT and thats gonna be the end of us all.. (do you believe in GOD ?)
And I did that this morning @ 5am and was in my office @ 6am being the fat, lazy, rich government worker I am. Or so some claim. :bluefrown:so all you can do is keep riding your bicycle (like i have been now) to work etc. and do your tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny part in helping the environment
Its just not worth it, in three major accidents two will have killed hundreds of thousands dying miserable death over the period of a few years, that is not a good record I dont care what anyone says. Consider that the standards the nuclear plant in Japan were built to were absolutely incredible to say the least and we still have a disaster, that is not good, not good at all. We cannot go back, and while we can live with many things we do to the world, that is 200 years of radiation to deal with when there is an accident. :nono:stumblemumble said:I don't know. It sounded like some complete denial in some. Something about "Ocean level rise-hasn't happened" etc. We must continue to advance nuclear power. It is tragic what occurred in Japan, both on the objective tragedy and subjective view of nuclear energy. My point is that we CAN remain competitive and advance toward an environmentally sustainable society. It will require nuclear power though, there's just no other way. :thumbsup:
Blurr said:The real deciding factor here is Themeat And I are actually agreeing, that NEVER happens.
Ha ha ha. We agree again. Miracles do happen!
That says it all right there. Granola munchers want to do things their way at all cost. No middle ground, no compromise, no thought. Get out of the way or be mowed down by the granola bus. Youve musta danced the jig when the tsunami hit them nuclear reactorstheMeat said:Kinda makes me happy when things get worse b/c I believe the only way it's gonna change for the better is if it gets worse in a bigger, more shocking way.
Got that same pm. Thank you for addressing it, and well put.:thumbsup:crashedandburned said:In reply to your PM