Foes Fly 2:1 for 2007?

I would like to give my humble opinion.

I owned a 1999 Uzzi DH and I found that the Intense bikes are well made but with softer aluminum. I went through 3 chainstay yokes in 2 months and this was at a time when riding was not nearly what it is now. Very few Intenses are found on the Shore, and although cost is an issue, here cost is not the limiting factor. Quality is. You do find Santa Cruz, but Intense is essentially a non factor. You read into that what you want.

SC is alright, but the VPP design requires the bike sag into its sweet spot in order to work properly, and if you do not set it up right you may be in for a suprise. The pedalling of the VPP requires chain tension to work, and that is not good. Sadly, removing the platform shock off of all bikes, there are few truly capable designs. The Horst link 4 bar and the Turner/Ellsworth 4 bar are about the best, on design alone, for pedalling and braking. The Fly is good, but the floating brake and shock make up for any deficiencies, and what you are left with is an awesome bike for pedalling and freeriding. I must confess that the pedalling statement is relative, but one CAN pedal the bike and not feel ANY adverse effects; remarkable for a bike with so much travel.

You must remember that locales of riding will determine what is good. If you ride in a tough environment it will find any weaknesses in design, and if you ride in a softer locale then flaws might not be revealed. I am not saying you ride in an easy locale, but I can tell you that for a fact Intense is a non factor on the Shore.

I wonder why.

blackfly said:

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SC is alright, but the VPP design requires the bike sag into its sweet spot in order to work properly, and if you do not set it up right you may be in for a suprise. The pedalling of the VPP requires chain tension to work, and that is not good. Sadly, removing the platform shock off of all bikes, there are few truly capable designs. The Horst link 4 bar and the Turner/Ellsworth 4 bar are about the best, on design alone, for pedalling and braking. The Fly is good, but the floating brake and shock make up for any deficiencies, and what you are left with is an awesome bike for pedalling and freeriding. I must confess that the pedalling statement is relative, but one CAN pedal the bike and not feel ANY adverse effects; remarkable for a bike with so much travel.

Click to expand...

Care to back that statement up with some facts? "and that is not good" simply doesn't cut it as substantial evidence. The vpp design cancels pedalling bob with chain torque, which allows the use of NON-PLATFORM shocks, which many people, including myself, see as a huge advantage. Does that make the design perfect, or the best? Absolutely not. But it is a viable option.

I currently own a vp-free and a Horst 5 spot which replaced a Blur. I've also owned a Fly and a Bullit. The vpp's climb better, and the horst tracks better on the downs. It's all about priorities. As for the Fly, it's great bike and has evolved beautifully over the years. In fact, when it finally DOES evolve into a 2:1 design I might find myself a Foes owner again. Until then, there are many great freeride bikes to try, namely the IH 7 point, and the Turner Highline.

First of all, the proof is in the pudding.

There are very few, if any IH 7 on the Shore, or Turners. I wonder why. Lack of strength, serviceablility and high cost relative to needs probably have something to do with it. There are a lot of SC VPP designs here, so I will belabour this point. I will not go into bikes that are a non factor where I ride. Remember, my point of view is relative.

Turner and Ellsworth designs are excellent for pedalling and braking, but the design itself is inherently linear rate. The Dare (I owned 2) and the Rogue (my friend is selling his after 3 rides) both had the same problem. They both could be real plush but bottom out, or not bottom out and be firm. The Fly does both. Platform shocks do not help; the Rogue has the Fox DHX 5 on it and still the same problem. So the 4 bar link works, but time has caught up with it. If you are more cross country, jump right in. Not good for what I need.

VPP must be in the sweet spot to work properly, and this is determined on springrate and rider weight. If not set up properly you will either close the shock with each pedal stroke or pull the rear end towards the BB with each pedalstroke. Either way, not good. You do not feel it much, but compared to a 4 bar design, you will notice it. The SC are not of the same manufacture calibre as Foes, no comparison. The one problem SC has here is the pivots are very maintainence costly. Weather, torsion and wear all cause the bearings to need extra attention compared to other designs. My Dares only needed a change once every 2 years, the Foes, I changed them every year anyway but my buddy has not changed his since new, 3 years. This adds up and if one is not mechanically inclined, will frustrate them. I have seen people sell bikes for less cause.

Frankly, what you own is irrelevant to me. You chose what you own based on what you like, and this is relative to where you ride and what. The environment I subject my bike to is the most demanding possible, for terrain or weather. And between myself and my friend, we have owned 1 Kona, I Rocky HT, I Mountain Cycle Shockwave, I Intense Uzzi DH, 4 Dares, 2 Flys and I Ellsworth Rogue. This does not count the frames we have tried and rejected and each frame was an evolution on the one previous. Each got better. I have never ridden a 5 Spot, nor will I. Turner is hardly represented here on the Shore and warranty support is non existent. Ellsworths have fallen out of favour with all the Joker breakages. Foes has good support. SC is popular due to being cheap, as quality frames go, but you see NO Intense VPP. Intense has never had a strong showing, and I can go into why, but not here. But the fact you don't see them tells you something.

Riding locals will determine, in the minds of the locals, what is good or not, but this itself is somewhat biased. I rider in the Dakotas that calls a bike good may find the bike not so good as the demands of the trails goes up in harder riding locals. To my view, as a lifelong Shore rider, the bike that is good should be strong, reactive, ramp up and be pedalled. Braking should offer no ill effects. There is no perfect bike, but from the list of needs and wants, the Fly right now, represents perfection. Come ride with me on the Shore for a year in the rain and snow, and see what I mean. If you think that the fact I ride on the Shore exclusively adds no creedence to my words then you are mistaken. All bike design, currently, is based on Shore needs. Gussets, bigger headset insertion, larger bars, raked front ends.... all of this stemmed from bikes needing to be stronger to survive the cutting edge, which so happened to be my back yard. It didn't just happen, it evolved.

The principles of the VPP design have been clearly laid out in articles and magazines, and anyone paying good dollar should do the research. I love bikes, and will pay anything to get what I want and what I think is good. If the VPP design were for me, I would of bought it. When the V10 came out people bought it but found it heavy, hard to maneouver and thus they are not nearly as popular. I find it shocking you do not know the working principles of your own bike. To not know how the s curve design works and how chain pressure affects it only affirms to me that PT Barnum was right. Not to say you were duped, but to buy something not fully aware of every facet proves to me most do not know much about the bikes they own, technology wise. I cannot fathom how you can ask me to prove that VPP needs chain pressure when it is the very principle of the patent (location of the transition in the S movement). I suggest you look in a magazine that has a Specialized add that is many pages long. It goes through every design and explains it in one paragraph. Of course it is a little slanted, but you will be educated.

Like I said, come ride with me for a year. When you are changing bearings in 3 months, don't ask me to help.

Most Specialized Demo bikes are the same. DU bushings wear real fast and the pivots are hard to get at and time consuming. Matters to me, as I do all my own work.

But hey, each to their own. I enjoy my rides, hope you enjoy yours.

Not to throw TOO much of a monkey wrench into the conversation, I think there are valid points to be had from both parties here (I am a VP Free rider, and it does indeed kick a$$ on the climbs with a non-platform Roco rear shock).

What I see in pix and vids from the shore seem to be a lot of the same brands.. Cove, Norco, Specialized, Yeti and Santa Cruz. Throw in a few Konas, Devinicis and other miscellaneous brands, and I think the pattern is quite clear. Much of it is cost effectiveness based on the purpose of the bike... but another factor is marketing and sponsorship. I would bet my left arm that if Darren Berrecloth rode an Intense Uzzi, every kid on the shore would want one. The Michael Jordan Nike thing.. all over again.

I think that plays a bigger part in bike buying decisions than we give credit for. Otherwise, why would sponsorship contracts be going up in value? Do you think Commencal bike sales have gone up since Cedric signed on with them? I bet they have.

Just food for thought. I think Foes makes a kick ass product and I hope to own one soon myself, regardless of who is riding one. The Foes 2:1 Mono DH is the baddest looking DH bike on the market, and it also makes the most sense from my standpoint. Foes is doing what SC used to use as a moniker.. Simply Advanced Bicycles.

I think you are an idiot. Sorry bro.
I owned an Intense, and the only place you see them is at Whistler ridden by mostly people who do not ride the Shore year round. I have lived here all my life, so I can say this with some authority.

Sponsorship means ****. Cost, and performance, rule. Will the bike SURVIVE the Shore, is far more important to the equation than performance. I, like a few, realize the high end market has excellent bikes. But I am not a hammerhead that abuses bikes or rides with not grace. I am not saying I am the best, but having been a mechanic for most my riding life, I can tell you this:

The first priority for a Shorerider is strength. Will the bike last. Are the pivots easy to replace? Wet weather erodes them. Is the design tested with this environment in mind? Tony Ellsworth tried this with his Joker, and found that with not being "one of us" many of his Jokers broke. You can no longer call Ellsworth a factor on the Shore. Is the bike active. Is the bike plush. Is it well built. Does the company have a lot of support locally? Intense has NO local Shore dealer with any support of confidence. You can get a Norco, with similar (identical, actually) rear end and much stronger rear end for much less price. Go figure.

I love my Foes. I see FAR more Foes' here than any other boutique brand. You could call my observations biased, but I am always looking for the next thing, and as always, it is from Foes.

I apologize I called you an idiot, but do not make statements about the Shore that you cannot back up. Marketing matters not. If it is strong and well backed up, it will be found on the Shore and supported. No hype, from anyone, will fool anyone here. The word will, and does, get out.

Lucky the consensus about Foes is nothing but positive. Kind of why I support them wholeheartedly. Strong, firm, plush and good warranty. Nuff said.

Having some experience in this business, and being a dealer for Intense, SC, Yeti, Turner, Ventana, etc... I take a little offense to that post.

One of the best things SC does for it's dealer (other than make great bikes) is market the hell out of them, and it sells bikes, lots of bikes. I have ridden ALL of the brands we sell, and rode an Uzzi VPX all last year... compared to my VP Free this year. I am not going to venture which one I think is better, they are different. Are they different in their design in terms of strength? You betcha. The Uzzi was actually beefier with beefier pivots and links. It was also gusseted more and had larger diameter tube. They are both surprisingly easy to work on (both easier than a Demo 9), and both can take the abuse of big hits. I suspect that if Tyler Klassen can't break a VP Free during a 90 day tour of your area while filming Drop In, I would expect an Uzzi to hold up the same.

Norco is building VPP bikes now? Nope. Norco is still building Horst bikes, Intense hasn't for about 3 years now. To the best of my knowledge, the VPP patent is owned by SC and Intense buys rights to build their bikes. No one else does a VPP other than the knockoffs like the DW-Link or Maestro (no knocks there, both are great designs that work VERY well). There is a difference in the VPP patents. The linkages rotate in opposite directions. Bottom link rotates CW, and the top link rotates CCW. The other ones got around the patent by rotating the links in the same direction. They put their own spin on it, but in essence, it is merely the sincerest form of flattery, IMO. There may be more to it than you wish to give credit for.

Your first post eluded to cost. Foes is a "cost is no object" solution. I am a bit confused. I love the Foes line, I really do. I would venture to say that we may be seeing them in our shop sooner than later... but I can almost buy 2 VP Frees for the price of one Fly. Not a knock on the Fly, just a fact. I appreciate the fact that you see a lot of Foes up there on the shore. I applaud it actually. That just means to us that Brent will stay focused on trying to one up himself all the time, and we all benefit from that.

Last thing I would like to say is that the all time grand daddy of freeride to most everyone in the world is STILL the SC Bullitt. Simple, unbreakable, inexpensive. The perfect bike for up and comers trying to save a few $. THAT makes sense to me.

Bro, if Tyler broke a frame I am sure we all would be the last to know. NO manufacturer wants to have any type of freeride/DH bike fail as the buying public would lose confidence. This is exactly what happened to Ellsworth. I am sure SC pushes their products. They are a bigger company making a good product that most can afford. Good marketing. I see LOTS of SC on the Shore, and have done so for years. Once the Bullit came out, people could afford a higher end frame that delivered the goods at a price they could afford. But the Bullit was a single pivot bike, easy to maintain (only had one pivot) and many who have bikes are not the most inclined to home maintainence. I, however, am one so the fact many pivots are involved does not frighten me but perhaps others.

Never say a frame is unbreakable. Remember the Titanic?

Regarding price, the Fly is costly. But compared to a Nomad or VPP free, on quality alone, there is no comparison. All of the linkage parts on the Fly are full CNC'ed. They are forged then welded on the SC. Foes uses hydroformed members that are calculated for strength and weight. They are all hand made with the finest craftsmanship. And having had many high end bikes, it show in the ride and setup. Headset needed no reaming. Very little chase was needed at the BB. The frame (my Fly) is DEAD arrow straight. Remarkable for all the parts. Intense is not so good with this. The M1 was almost never straight.

Whatever one likes they will get. But this is fact: You see SC here a lot on cost. Foes is here, but it is more expensive and rarer, but it is far more common than Ellsworth, and just a few years ago, an Ellsworth was the bike to have here. No more. You see NO Intense. In fact, the only place you see Intense is in Whistler by people who are not Shore natives. What does that tell you. What is popular here is simply the best at surivial, performance and cost. If there is a good bike, despite cost, you will see it here. You see everything, and if it is good, or the best, word gets out. I am a local, and can only be honest on what I see. As they say, the proof is in the pudding. It is not my fault the truth may not be to all's liking.

I agree the Foes is not a first timers bike. But it is one that most aspire to, and in that class, there are few I would recommend.