Flagstaff Snowbowl
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One of the worlds best trails is right near there. Seek and you shall find.
why worry about that when there's a road that goes up to the top of Mt Eldon?
The San Fran peaks are "sacred" to many SW Native Americans. The fact that there is a ski resort and that they do skiing in the winter is something that does not go over well with most of them. Chance of summer MTB=0.0
The San Fran peaks are "sacred" to many SW Native Americans. The fact that there is a ski resort and that they do skiing in the winter is something that does not go over well with most of them. Chance of summer MTB=0.0
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You'd think it would be a no brainer. Snowbowl runs the scenic skyride in the summer anyway. There's already the impact of the ski runs so whats the impact of a few trails? For some reason, the Snowbowl management is against it and I'm not so sure its out of respect to the native americans. You'd think it would appeal to the forest service as well as more and more illegal trails are built by the downhilling communtity. Don't get me wrong, the freeride community should definitely have a place to careen down the mountain. Unfortunately, the "north shore" type of trails are hardly multi-use and will most likely never be condoned by the managers of the Coconino Nat. Forest. I'd be willing to bet that Blue Dot and Wasabi will be eradicated once the FS gets wind of them. So why not Snowbowl?
Uh, I don't think so. There are many many more trails up there than just BD and Wasabi that are "hidden" and have been up there for years. For the most part, they still exist. Heck, 90% of blue dot is rocks that you ride down, or ride off. What is the FS going to do? Take boulders out and remove rock slabs hundreds of feet long? Even if they did manage to take out some of the trail, someone would easily reroute it back to those same rock slabs and drops from other directions....rockman said:
The FS has taken a blind eye to much of what goes on up there, and right now, that's a pretty damn good thing. The regular trails have suffered more. It's such a popular area that I do not know if any amount of "enforcement" would ever work anyhow...
It is a "no brainer" for the Indians who hold the mountain to be sacred.
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You're right, there are lots of social trails up there. Definitely good to have a few options on a busy weekend rather than using Schultz to access various trails. However, social trails are a bad thing when they're not constructed right and turn into erosional ditches during heavy rains. And the FS has cared in the past. They blocked Weenies Walk one year and closed Schultz Creek to downhill bike traffic in 1990 for the whole summer! They've also considered eradicating West Orion Springs "aka secret trail" because there is a nesting pair of Spotted Owls in the area.
I still don't think the position of the native americans factors into why Snowbowl hasn't built any trails. They have the lease and the beliefs of the tribes certainly didn't factor in when they clearcut Lava and Volcano and also removed a gazillion tons of rock to widen lower bowl a couple of years ago. Or, their latest expansion efforts. But maybe I'm wrong.
I still don't think the position of the native americans factors into why Snowbowl hasn't built any trails. They have the lease and the beliefs of the tribes certainly didn't factor in when they clearcut Lava and Volcano and also removed a gazillion tons of rock to widen lower bowl a couple of years ago. Or, their latest expansion efforts. But maybe I'm wrong.
where's the $$
It just doesn't pencil out, to them. For us it seems automatic that they could make money, but the amt of capital needed for improvements and 'environmental impact studies' are very prohibitive. They would have to be promised a long term NORBA nationals or world cup race to even consider it worthwhile, and even then, on paper it looks like more of a headache than it's worth. Besides, all of their energy is focused on snowmaking, and that has cost them near a million, with no guarantee of success.
There just aren't enough downhillers to make it worthwhile, anybody can strap on a pair of skis, not many can handle a real downhill run (mtbikers included). A pair of skis is easy to rent and repair. A downhill machine takes more knowledge and $ to fix and is more expensive in the first place.
So, it's fun to dream about, but until a massive change in culture takes place in N AZ, it's just not going to happen.
T.A.
It just doesn't pencil out, to them. For us it seems automatic that they could make money, but the amt of capital needed for improvements and 'environmental impact studies' are very prohibitive. They would have to be promised a long term NORBA nationals or world cup race to even consider it worthwhile, and even then, on paper it looks like more of a headache than it's worth. Besides, all of their energy is focused on snowmaking, and that has cost them near a million, with no guarantee of success.
There just aren't enough downhillers to make it worthwhile, anybody can strap on a pair of skis, not many can handle a real downhill run (mtbikers included). A pair of skis is easy to rent and repair. A downhill machine takes more knowledge and $ to fix and is more expensive in the first place.
So, it's fun to dream about, but until a massive change in culture takes place in N AZ, it's just not going to happen.
T.A.
They have to draw a good number of riders to offset the insurance cost of having riders on the mountain, the energy draw for the lift, and the energy/time it takes to maintain and build trails.
I do not have the time to explain the importance of the mountains to the Native Americans to you. Take a few courses if you want to learn. It's an integral part of our state history.
I do not have the time to explain the importance of the mountains to the Native Americans to you. Take a few courses if you want to learn. It's an integral part of our state history.
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Hey Jm I'm sorry your so busy. You missed my point. I did not state that I'm not sensitive to the spiritual beliefs of native americans and that they hold the SF peaks sacred. Rather, I insinuated that the management at the AZ Snowbowl is insensitive to the beliefs of the native amerians and that whatever the N. Americans believe is not factored into their desire to upgrade facilities and increase ski runs.
And as far as the FS taking a blind eye to the large number of social trails...on my ride this morning both entrances to East and West Orion Springs (aka Secret trail) were blocked by large trees. Continuing on the Overlook the entire trail had been blocked by trees and deadfall. All the way to to the viewpoint and some distance beyond and probably the whole trail. I backtracked and rode Weatherford trail instead but apparently the FS does care. I doubt it was a coupe of hikers. It must have taken a large crew judging from the size of some of the trees.
And as far as the FS taking a blind eye to the large number of social trails...on my ride this morning both entrances to East and West Orion Springs (aka Secret trail) were blocked by large trees. Continuing on the Overlook the entire trail had been blocked by trees and deadfall. All the way to to the viewpoint and some distance beyond and probably the whole trail. I backtracked and rode Weatherford trail instead but apparently the FS does care. I doubt it was a coupe of hikers. It must have taken a large crew judging from the size of some of the trees.
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Hey, I don't know if it makes a difference to anyone . . .
But on Sat. riding down Shultz Creek, during a heavy downpour, the trail was a river!
Most of the trails I have riden on Mt. Eldon (not many, but a few) are not constructed with water runoff in mind, sure some of the trails have ill-placed waterbar "thingies" and whatnot, but most of the trails are just "worn-in" to where they are and from what I can tell the Forest Service doesn't maintain them at all. save for a few waterbars, sunset, rocky ridge, upper oldham, lookout and shultz creek all looked to be made and maintained by simple bike and foot traffic.
I noticed that most of the riders from Flag seem to be riding hardtails and are more "budget" minded as opposed to folks from Phoenix, Prescott and other places around the state (maybe because Flagstaff is a college town, go figure)
So I would figure most of the stuff in the Mt. Eldon area is just going to be "out of sight, out of mind" to the Forrest Service. But that's just my opinion, and what the heck do I know?
But on Sat. riding down Shultz Creek, during a heavy downpour, the trail was a river!
Most of the trails I have riden on Mt. Eldon (not many, but a few) are not constructed with water runoff in mind, sure some of the trails have ill-placed waterbar "thingies" and whatnot, but most of the trails are just "worn-in" to where they are and from what I can tell the Forest Service doesn't maintain them at all. save for a few waterbars, sunset, rocky ridge, upper oldham, lookout and shultz creek all looked to be made and maintained by simple bike and foot traffic.
I noticed that most of the riders from Flag seem to be riding hardtails and are more "budget" minded as opposed to folks from Phoenix, Prescott and other places around the state (maybe because Flagstaff is a college town, go figure)
So I would figure most of the stuff in the Mt. Eldon area is just going to be "out of sight, out of mind" to the Forrest Service. But that's just my opinion, and what the heck do I know?
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To my knowledge the only "official" trail the forest service has given up on is upper Oldham. Lots of maintenance has gone on by the FS and volunteers on just about all of the trails. Most recently the controversial rock clearing on Rocky Ridge last year, now known as Rocket Ridge. Except for the secret ones of course. These guys are awesome:
http://www.flagstaffbiking.org/modules/trailissues/article.php?storyid=13am.
http://www.flagstaffbiking.org/modules/trailissues/article.php?storyid=13am.
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sunrise
i drive about 4 hours to get there- but it's worth it. i've only been up there one time (i'm going again on saturday). Anyone know any good trails up on that hill, please let me know? Last time i only got to do 4 runs due to me showing up late. This time i'll be waiting for the gates to open.
i drive about 4 hours to get there- but it's worth it. i've only been up there one time (i'm going again on saturday). Anyone know any good trails up on that hill, please let me know? Last time i only got to do 4 runs due to me showing up late. This time i'll be waiting for the gates to open.
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