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Daniel the Dog
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I had an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

Jaybo
 

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Time is not a road.
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4,150 Posts
I have to take this opportunity to deride the practice of contracting out services by companies that have caused a severe decline in quality and employee wages. Its called "outsourcing". It's a far bigger domestic problem than foreign.

We all know that frames were not welded by Ellsworth employees, yet, since they chose the outsourced frame builders, Ellsworth should be held accountable for the outsourcer's actions. Yet, it's hard to manage another company's output entirely since you rely on its management to take care of those sorts of things. Another example of work going to the lowest bidder - just like how your roads and bridges are built!

See, I work for a company that provides outsourced labor for a major US corporation. I don't care what happens to that corporation, if it fails or succeeds. Its customers are of no real concern to me. I don't negotiate contracts or see the rewards of a job "well done". My wage is literally half or less than that of a true employee of that corporation (if there are any left. Over 60,000 employees have been laid off from that company since I started here 3 years ago). And I'm performing three times the duties that those original employees ever did. Where's my incentive for "quality"?

So while you like to take every opportunity to beat a dead horse, I have to applaude Ellsworth for taking control of their company and moving production "in-house", where their own employees make the products, who have real concern for the quality, real concern for customer satisfaction - because their name is on the frame. It's a positive step and in time, will be recognized as such.
 

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chad1433 said:
I have to take this opportunity to deride the practice of contracting out services by companies that have caused a severe decline in quality and employee wages. Its called "outsourcing". It's a far bigger domestic problem than foreign.

We all know that frames were not welded by Ellsworth employees, yet, since they chose the outsourced frame builders, Ellsworth should be held accountable for the outsourcer's actions. Yet, it's hard to manage another company's output entirely since you rely on its management to take care of those sorts of things. Another example of work going to the lowest bidder - just like how your roads and bridges are built!

See, I work for a company that provides outsourced labor for a major US corporation. I don't care what happens to that corporation, if it fails or succeeds. Its customers are of no real concern to me. I don't negotiate contracts or see the rewards of a job "well done". My wage is literally half or less than that of a true employee of that corporation (if there are any left. Over 60,000 employees have been laid off from that company since I started here 3 years ago). And I'm performing three times the duties that those original employees ever did. Where's my incentive for "quality"?

So while you like to take every opportunity to beat a dead horse, I have to applaude Ellsworth for taking control of their company and moving production "in-house", where their own employees make the products, who have real concern for the quality, real concern for customer satisfaction - because their name is on the frame. It's a positive step and in time, will be recognized as such.
That is a really well put perspective and you are so right with your point as well. Outsourcing is really killing quality in many fields. Price to customers and profits to stock holders has taken over everything in our modern society. Eventhough I'm not a Ellsworth customer and not even a US citizen, I was really happy when I read in a magazine that they built a new plant locally and are going to produce themselves from now on. It may not change a thing with their quality, but if it is like that, it will be their own objective.
 

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good grief...not again.

Apparently, if there is a mfg defect, Ellsworth is addressing correcting the problem with a remarkable sense of urgency...this board has recently been filled with posts from people who have been treated well, and are very happy with the service

Geez
 

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Brass Nipples!
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Jaybo said:
Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I have an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

Jaybo
Hey Smeagol, haven't visited in a while, huh?

Momentum has really shifted away from broken bikes here. Seems that frames are breaking a lot less, and customer service has taken a big step up to take care of things when they do. In house manufacturing should also improve overall quality.

How long ago did you have your ISIS problem? There's no excuse for misaligned tabs, but couldn't your shop face them?
 

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Leash Law Enforcer
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First off, Jaybo - I don't think there is freedom of speech where that speech is inciteful. Do your comments qualify? What a waste of energy and brain power on keystrokes to start such an irrelevant (currently) and ridiculous thread all out of (what appears to be) personal spite.

Second, Chad - While I agree with your general comments I would like to point out that you should have two incentives to produce quality products for that company using your services. First, generally speaking, your products will carry a warranty (whether you know it or not). In some cases this warranty may only extend to the company for whom you make these products. In other cases the warranty may extend to the end user. Regardless, this can affect you financially. You may not see an immediate difference in your pocketbook but you would sure notice when your company goes under and you have no job because it cannot cover the cost of lawsuits and the warranty that it had provided in the first place. Second, it is your work. Take some pride in it. I, like most people nowadays, work to play instead of work to work (yes, there was a time when that was what we Americans did). Still, whatever you produce reflects on you. Just my .02.
 

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Time is not a road.
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Pinch said:
Second, Chad - While I agree with your general comments I would like to point out that you should have two incentives to produce quality products for that company using your services. First, generally speaking, your products will carry a warranty (whether you know it or not). In some cases this warranty may only extend to the company for whom you make these products. In other cases the warranty may extend to the end user. Regardless, this can affect you financially. You may not see an immediate difference in your pocketbook but you would sure notice when your company goes under and you have no job because it cannot cover the cost of lawsuits and the warranty that it had provided in the first place. Second, it is your work. Take some pride in it. I, like most people nowadays, work to play instead of work to work (yes, there was a time when that was what we Americans did). Still, whatever you produce reflects on you. Just my .02.
I agree to the extent that I have doing this job and care very little for it or the end products (telecom, BTW). What we create is somewhat intangible. Much of my attitude was created by the policies of this outsourcer and not so much the parent company. Poor mangement, inequality and greed rule the roost here. I take no pride in bolstering the profits of a Corporation at the expense of so many citizens...

So, I'm looking for something else...
 

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Daniel the Dog
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It hurts us all

TechniKal said:
I'm pretty upset that Turner had to switch to an inferior suspension design, too.
Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

Jaybo
 

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The Dude Abides
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212 Posts
Patents are a good thing

Jaybo said:
Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

Jaybo
What about Santa Cruz? Maverick? GT/Haro? Patenting an invention is far from petty crap. An extreme example and not intended to represent anyone: what if you found a way to build the perfect mountain bike. No suspension bob, no brake effects, the lightest frame, by far the best bike ever made by anyone. Now what if there was no way for you to protect your idea, and any Tom, Dick or Harry can make one just like it, reaping all of the reward from your R&D. It's why we have patent laws, and there is no reason why the cycling industry should be void of it.
 

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Time is not a road.
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Jaybo said:
Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

Jaybo
I noted that perhaps these types of patent disputes should be eliminated and was chastised because that's not "Free Market thinking". So, then, business is business.

Turner seems to have made a decent product with TNT. Furthermore, you're speculating that this decision is based on some sort of aggressive tactics by either Specialized or Ellsworth. One could look at it and say that other designs such as VPP, Maestro and DW Link were created because of patents like these. It is quite possible that the future of suspension design has not yet been discovered.
 

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My cup runneth over
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Jaybo said:
Don't you get it? When companies like Ellsworth and Specialized get into this petty crap it erodes mountain biking for us all! I agree, I think Turners are clearly not as good post this fiasco as before it. The HL is the most supple suspension design on the market; however, when my Spot ends its useful like I will not be buying either an Ellsworth or a Specialized. Stikin' Tony and his band of merry morons are hurting us all.

Jaybo
With all due respect to your point, I think your posts here predominantly make Ellsworth riders ticked at you and more protective of their brand; the latter also eroding mtbing enjoyment.
 

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Daniel the Dog
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think Ellsworth makes good bikes

rmac said:
With all due respect to your point, I think your posts here predominantly make Ellsworth riders ticked at you and more protective of their brand; the latter also eroding mtbing enjoyment.
If you are ticked that is fine. You might vent your anger on some faceless dude on the web than your kid of boss.

I'm not at all protective of Turner. I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot. I know Ellsworth has not...

Jaybo
 

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Trail Rider
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In all fairness to Ellsworth...

Jaybo said:
Insteed of threatening lawsuits and patenting that stupid ICT deal. I would rather get a root canal or an enema than buy an Ellsworth. I had an Isis that had disc tabs that were not straight. Nice quality control, Tony!

Jaybo
I think they addressed the breaking Truth issues.They did have some breaking rear end, and rocker issues also. I still think that ICT bikes put a lot of stress on the seat tube. The beefier frames can handle it. I think Tony runs into problems when he makes the ultra light frames and people use them for riding styles that don't work with an ultra light frame. I believe Aquaholic has broken a couple of 5 Spots already, before going with a 6 Pack front frame. I believe he broke at " least" one Truth frame also. He does ride a very large frame and does ride in a manner that probably won't work with an ultra light frame, as far a durability. He likes Turner's customer service(from what I've read). I also think that Turner tends to make a little heavier bike for the same travel than Ellsworth. Maybe it is all about picking the right frame for your riding style. As far as the patent issue, I wonder what would have happened if Horst Leitner had enforced his patent when Tony first started making frames? I do believe that the ICT patent had a lot to do with Turner changing his pivot location. After all, Ellsworth is making a direct competitor for the 5 Spot. Now he has the only ( ICT?) design 5 in. travel frame(no competition). We probably won't know the real truth until next year, when he won't be selling ICTs anymore(Tony's lawyers). Titus still uses the the HL but has no issue with ICT(different design). I'm not an engineer, but I find it hard to believe in a patent based on some intersecting lines using a Horst link(also), and what is up with that Atlas single pivot patent(BS). That design has been around for years. I wouldn't buy an Ellsworth because of the past customer service(last year's Moment had me tempted, though). That whole thing about having to buy a new shock because of a design flaw keeps me away. Ellsworth should have addressed the issue and ate cost of the shock. I'd probably would have bought a Moment. Maybe he has changed? I do like the idea of the in house build and the new factory in the USA. There aren't many left.
 

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Why have new ideas if you can't patent and own them so as to make money? That's the benefit (and most of the intent, from my understanding) behind patent law- to encourage innovation. I am about as far from conservative person as can be imagined, but even I agree with this aspect of a "free market."

I do, I will admit, take issue with Specialized purchasing a patent for an idea that was not theirs and then refusing to sell it to brands they view as serious competition. It wasn't their own idea in the first place...

Another person's .02....
 

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The Dude Abides
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But it worked so well for Santa Cruz

Mike Brown said:
Why have new ideas if you can't patent and own them so as to make money? That's the benefit (and most of the intent, from my understanding) behind patent law- to encourage innovation. I am about as far from conservative person as can be imagined, but even I agree with this aspect of a "free market."

I do, I will admit, take issue with Specialized purchasing a patent for an idea that was not theirs and then refusing to sell it to brands they view as serious competition. It wasn't their own idea in the first place...

Another person's .02....
While when that whole patent owner definition and buyout occured might have been a bit ugly, patent purchasing has had its upside. The VPP design is brilliant, but the company who owned them did a pretty poor job of making a company out of it. But thanks to Santa Cruz, we now have super sweet bikes with this great suspension and quality frames. So while the Specialized situation may not have been so good, we have seen some great innovations because of it.
 

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Leash Law Enforcer
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Jaybo said:
I like their bikes but I would jump ship in a heart beat if someone could manage to make a bike clearly better than a Spot. I know Ellsworth has not...
Have you ridden every Ellsworth? Have you ridden any of the new bikes, most importantly the Epiphany which IMO is meant to compete head on with the 5-Spot? Doubtful. So, you cannot "know" that Ellsworth has not made a better bike than the 5-Spot. I'm not saying that the Epiphany is better because I haven't ridden either. But I am saying that you cannot "know" unless you have ridden it. Now, go away.
 
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