REVIEWS DEALS BIKESHOPS TRAILS

Educate Me on Suspension Designs

1239 Views 18 Replies 11 Participants Last post by Clutchman83, Jun 24, 2006

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · Jun 19, 2006

I'm a diehard hard tail rider.
Never rode a FS bike in my life.
However, I'm finally realizing that the HT is limiting my downhill speed, and I want to go faster. But, I don't want to lose the nimble, good handling manners of my HT completely.
So, I'm thinking about buying a FS bike.
But I don't know the first thing about the various designs.
Is there some table or discussion somewhere that lists the pros and cons of the various suspension systems? Naming of specific brands and models for each design will be greatly appreciated.
What I'm looking for is the lightest weight, simplest setup that will let me go faster down hills, yet not lose the nimble feeling of a HT.
What about Soft Tails?
Do they offer anything?
Please help me out.
Thanks,
Lenny

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

SCUBAPRO

· #2 · Jun 19, 2006 (Edited)

What's the budget? Are you looking at buying a prebuilt bike or buy a frame and build it yourself? Lots of chioces for what you're looking for. I would look at, in no particular order:

Turner - Nitrous or flux
Specialized - Epic
Santa Cruz - Blur
Iron Horse - Azure or MkIII
ellsworth - Epiphany

Sorry about not answering your main quesiton but that requires an entire book to cover that. If you really want to know, start by perusing through this: http://www.mountainbike.co.nz/people/dougal/chain.html

Take the info on that site with a grain of salt. It's definitely not 100% accurate but only takes a stab at explaining the designs. Keep in mind that a properly tuned suspension (shocks) will make more of a difference, on any of the above bikes, than the linkage itself.

FrankinMich

· #3 · Jun 19, 2006

In addition

To add to what Scubapro indicated, I would also include:

Ventana -- El Saltamontes, X5, or El Fuego
Giant -- Anthem or Reign

Based upon where you are coming from, and the ride characteristics you seem to want, I would recommend going with a 3" - 4" travel suspension (rather than a more trail-oriented 5" or greater travel) with XC oriented frame geometry. From the lists mentioned above, bikes/frames that best fit this criteria (in no particular order) would be the Giant Anthem, Ventana El Fuego, Iron Horse Azure, and Specialized Epic.

You may also want to consider the type of suspension components. Rear shocks and forks with SPV (Stable Platform Valving) such as Manitou, or Terralogic platform valving (e.g. Fox products) will provide a firmer ride when pedaling and more closely approximate the feel and responsiveness of a hard tail.

iviguy

· #4 · Jun 19, 2006

Lenny said:
I'm a diehard hard tail rider.
Never rode a FS bike in my life.
However, I'm finally realizing that the HT is limiting my downhill speed, and I want to go faster. But, I don't want to lose the nimble, good handling manners of my HT completely.
So, I'm thinking about buying a FS bike.
But I don't know the first thing about the various designs.
Is there some table or discussion somewhere that lists the pros and cons of the various suspension systems? Naming of specific brands and models for each design will be greatly appreciated.
What I'm looking for is the lightest weight, simplest setup that will let me go faster down hills, yet not lose the nimble feeling of a HT.
What about Soft Tails?
Do they offer anything?
Please help me out.
Thanks,
Lenny

There are too many designs to list, really. The key is finding a design that has a stable platform, meaning that it doesn't bob when you are pedaling. Most of the newer designs are stable platform. Since you are used to the efficiency of a HT you probably want to look at the 3" to 4" XC racer type bikes. There were a few mentioned but probably the most popular is the Yeti AS-R. I didn't see that listed but there are several that have done comparisons on that bike with many others and it seems to always be at the top of the list.

If your budget allows, I would seriously take a look at the AS-R. What you really need to do though is demo some bikes. Make sure where ever you do the demo's that they take the time to setup the suspension for you. And stick with the bikes listed if possible. You don't want to test ride some bikes that will taint your impression of FS bikes.

It will take some getting used to, but once you find a bike that fits your riding style, you will be hard pressed to go back. A good FS bike will make you faster and you will be less fatigued - thus more energy.

This is top of the line on the AS-R but check the reviews: http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/xc_full_suspension/product_123157.shtml

See less See more

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 19, 2006

Ooh, good stuff so far guys.
Please keep it coming.
I've always wanted a Blur, but I don't really know what its strengths
and weaknesses are.
Price is a bit steep, but I suppose I could look for a pre-owned one.
The Anthem is another bike folks have told me about.
All you Blur and Anthem owners out there, what do you like and dislike about your bikes?
Lenny

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jun 20, 2006

Anybody else?

MK_

· #7 · Jun 20, 2006

First, what's your riding style like? Are you there to hammer out the uphill and be the first to the top kinda rider, leg shaver, high strung competitive type? Or more of a hit every tech move on the up kinda rider, finessing the down, just hoping to pick your line less and plow a bit more, hit some drops? Or something totally different?

Hartails are the most versitile frames out there. Period. They may lack suspension in the rear, but some of them offer morphing ability unmatched by full suspension bikes. Not all hardtails are built equal, naturally, hence the question.

Knowing your attitude about riding and your current setup will help recommending something you will really enjoy.

_MK

uktrailmonster

· #8 · Jun 21, 2006

My best advice is to ignore all the techy B*llsh*t reasons why each manufacturer's multi-link, hyper-intelligent, bob-free, zero feedback mega linkage is the best. There are good and bad designs of every type of linkage design and as SCUBAPRO mentioned, shock tuning is more important anyway.

First thing to decide is how much rear travel you need. I reckon 3" min (or you may as well stay on the HT) and 6" max. From what you describe ie. light, simple, nimble I'd say you'd be better looking in the 3-4" travel range. This will be plenty of travel to give more control than your HT on rough downhills and still keep it feeling lively.

Next decision is what type of shock to go for i.e. air or coil. In your case I'd say definitely air shock with adjustable platform damping eg. Swinger air, Fox RP3 etc. This will give you the lightest and firmest pedalling setup. You may find a full lockout useful too, coming off a HT.

So on to actual bikes. There are dozens of bikes that fit the bill above, far too many to list. Obviously you need to try a few out. My suggestions would be:-

Top end:
Ventana El Fuego (3" travel XC race)
Turner Nitrous (3" travel XC race)
Yeti AS-R (4" travel XC race)

Production:
SC Blur XC (4.5" travel XC/trail)
Specialized Stumpjumper FSR (4.7" travel XC/trail)
Giant Anthem (3.5" travel XC race bike)

These are all quick handling lightweight bikes. There are loads of othes too of course. It might also be useful to try a couple of 5-6" travel bikes to see the difference. All of the above have similar variants with longer travel. You'll also notice the above selection covers several generic design types i.e single pivot, Horst Link, FSR, VPP. It's pretty academic really and I strongly advise you not to limit your choice to one particular type. They all work well if well designed and engineered.

Have fun on the demo rides!

See less See more

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jun 21, 2006

MK_ said:
First, what's your riding style like? Are you there to hammer out the uphill and be the first to the top kinda rider, leg shaver, high strung competitive type? Or more of a hit every tech move on the up kinda rider, finessing the down, just hoping to pick your line less and plow a bit more, hit some drops? Or something totally different?

Hartails are the most versitile frames out there. Period. They may lack suspension in the rear, but some of them offer morphing ability unmatched by full suspension bikes. Not all hardtails are built equal, naturally, hence the question.

Knowing your attitude about riding and your current setup will help recommending something you will really enjoy.

_MK

Riding style: Yeah, I like to hammer the uphills (as long as they're short enough). On longer climbs, I'll just settle into a low gear and grind away. Technical stuff, I used to pick and choose my way through for the best line. Now, since I'm stronger, I try to just power thru and over the obstacles in as straight a line as possible. But the lack of rear suspension makes the rear end of my bike wander all over the place at times. I'm somewhat the same on the downhills. Have to avoid the larger rocks and drops at speed, but pretty much barrel through the smaller stuff.
Like I've said before, I have my eye on both the Blur and Anthem. One thing leading me to the Anthem is that my local bike shop and favorite owner/wrench of all time carries Giant. Already spoke to them about swapping things out on the bike. (for instance, I have to have Grip Shift) They've told me, no problem, we'll work with you.
Not sure I can do that with the Santa Cruz. And if so, it'll be more expensive.
So, for arguments sake, let's keep the discussion centered on the Blur and Anthem. Which design does what better?
It has to be a great climber, feel rock solid in fast downhill curves and over rocks, yet be able to pick good lines if I feel like going slow thru tech stuff.
I can be persuaded to go for the Blur if it's characteristics impress me more than the Anthem.
Again, thanks for sticking with me in this difficult decision.
As an aside, I rode a friend's Giant NRS for a short while yesterday.
While I liked it's comfort, I really missed the direct connection between rider/bike and trail.
Lenny

See less See more

uktrailmonster

· #10 · Jun 21, 2006

Lenny said:
Riding style: Yeah, I like to hammer the uphills (as long as they're short enough). On longer climbs, I'll just settle into a low gear and grind away. Technical stuff, I used to pick and choose my way through for the best line. Now, since I'm stronger, I try to just power thru and over the obstacles in as straight a line as possible. But the lack of rear suspension makes the rear end of my bike wander all over the place at times. I'm somewhat the same on the downhills. Have to avoid the larger rocks and drops at speed, but pretty much barrel through the smaller stuff.
Like I've said before, I have my eye on both the Blur and Anthem. One thing leading me to the Anthem is that my local bike shop and favorite owner/wrench of all time carries Giant. Already spoke to them about swapping things out on the bike. (for instance, I have to have Grip Shift) They've told me, no problem, we'll work with you.
Not sure I can do that with the Santa Cruz. And if so, it'll be more expensive.
So, for arguments sake, let's keep the discussion centered on the Blur and Anthem. Which design does what better?
It has to be a great climber, feel rock solid in fast downhill curves and over rocks, yet be able to pick good lines if I feel like going slow thru tech stuff.
I can be persuaded to go for the Blur if it's characteristics impress me more than the Anthem.
Again, thanks for sticking with me in this difficult decision.
As an aside, I rode a friend's Giant NRS for a short while yesterday.
While I liked it's comfort, I really missed the direct connection between rider/bike and trail.
Lenny

As you've narrowed your choice down to 2 bikes already, just demo them both and the choice should become easier. You should also demo at least one longer travel bike too (Giant Reign perhaps?) just to convince yourself 3-4" is enough.

40hills

· #11 · Jun 21, 2006

How about the Intense Spider? Very similar to the Blur XC.

Anyhow, the top considerations for a FS frame in my opinion are:
- Frame stiffness
- Shock technology/quality (RP3 if you want to get as close to a HT feel as possible but still want to open it up on the downhills)
- Frame weight

As mentioned already, the specifics and feel of the suspension designs are too miniscule to worry about on all of the fine frames listed above.

I personally am really liking that Anthem frame and sort of wish I had one. It's lighter than my Spider (supposed to be anyway), has enough travel for me, and I just think it's a REALLY COOL bike. The first time I saw the Anthem in a shop I was drooling.

After you narrow your choices as you have, simply get the one that you really like... don't be blinded by all the tech stuff. If I had done that, I maybe would have bought the Anthem instead of the Spider, but the bling of the Spider got to me I guess.

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jun 21, 2006

Good points.
Thanks.
Lenny

Warp

· #13 · Jun 21, 2006

Rich A. said:
How about the Intense Spider? Very similar to the Blur XC.

Anyhow, the top considerations for a FS frame in my opinion are:
- Frame stiffness
- Shock technology/quality (RP3 if you want to get as close to a HT feel as possible but still want to open it up on the downhills)
- Frame weight

As mentioned already, the specifics and feel of the suspension designs are too miniscule to worry about on all of the fine frames listed above.

I personally am really liking that Anthem frame and sort of wish I had one. It's lighter than my Spider (supposed to be anyway), has enough travel for me, and I just think it's a REALLY COOL bike. The first time I saw the Anthem in a shop I was drooling.

After you narrow your choices as you have, simply get the one that you really like... don't be blinded by all the tech stuff. If I had done that, I maybe would have bought the Anthem instead of the Spider, but the bling of the Spider got to me I guess.

A friend of mine has these three bikes...
- Intense Spider
- Yeti AS-R SL
- Turner Flux (HL)

He's been able to tell the difference between the three of them. He prefers the Yeti as a purebred racer. He says it's like riding a HT on the climbs and a FS on decesnts. The Intense is equally good, but it feels more cushy and not as responsive to quick acceleration... otoh, the Spider smokes the others on the rough.

The Turner is more a like riding a Cadillac after riding those other two... no slouch, by any stretch of imagination, but its geometry is more laid back, not as crisp but stupid plush. It's more trail oriented than the other two, which are more race oriented.

I'd love to add to the mess the Titus Racer-X. Proven, solid chassis that's been amongst the best of them for short travel full suspension bikes. Some people say its handling is more similar to a HT... but with 100mm of travel. Laterally really stiff, lightweight and with the RP3 from stock (if I remember correctly).

BTW... the Yeti is stupid light.

See less See more

fsrxc

· #14 · Jun 21, 2006

Lenny said:
Riding style: Yeah, I like to hammer the uphills (as long as they're short enough). On longer climbs, I'll just settle into a low gear and grind away. Technical stuff, I used to pick and choose my way through for the best line. Now, since I'm stronger, I try to just power thru and over the obstacles in as straight a line as possible. But the lack of rear suspension makes the rear end of my bike wander all over the place at times. I'm somewhat the same on the downhills. Have to avoid the larger rocks and drops at speed, but pretty much barrel through the smaller stuff.
Like I've said before, I have my eye on both the Blur and Anthem. One thing leading me to the Anthem is that my local bike shop and favorite owner/wrench of all time carries Giant. Already spoke to them about swapping things out on the bike. (for instance, I have to have Grip Shift) They've told me, no problem, we'll work with you.
Not sure I can do that with the Santa Cruz. And if so, it'll be more expensive.
So, for arguments sake, let's keep the discussion centered on the Blur and Anthem. Which design does what better?
It has to be a great climber, feel rock solid in fast downhill curves and over rocks, yet be able to pick good lines if I feel like going slow thru tech stuff.
I can be persuaded to go for the Blur if it's characteristics impress me more than the Anthem.
Again, thanks for sticking with me in this difficult decision.
As an aside, I rode a friend's Giant NRS for a short while yesterday.
While I liked it's comfort, I really missed the direct connection between rider/bike and trail.
Lenny

NRS - if it didn't feel "connected" I have to wonder if it was set to soft for your weight. Those bikes are meant to be set up with no sag, so it will feel "hardtail like", but still absorb bumps pretty well (a bit like an Epic but not the same design).

rkj__

· #15 · Jun 21, 2006

fsrxc said:
NRS - if it didn't feel "connected" I have to wonder if it was set to soft for your weight. Those bikes are meant to be set up with no sag, so it will feel "hardtail like", but still absorb bumps pretty well (a bit like an Epic but not the same design).

Yes, shock setup is very imoportant on any design. I know my NRS feels very connected to the trail. It offers some comfort, but does not make it so smooth that you think you are on a paved path.

OneEyeMan

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jun 21, 2006

Didn't change anything on the bike before I rode it.
It belongs to a girl who is quite a bit heavier than me.
So I guess it's really too soft for her.
She obviously doesn't know the first thing about setup.
Lenny

fsrxc

· #17 · Jun 22, 2006

Lenny said:
Didn't change anything on the bike before I rode it.
It belongs to a girl who is quite a bit heavier than me.
So I guess it's really too soft for her.
She obviously doesn't know the first thing about setup.
Lenny

The NRS is very sensitive to both positive and negative shock pressure, so either one out of range for your weight will make the bike ride mushy, or harsh, or crappy or whatever. It might take some messing around with pressures to get it working well enough to really evaluate on a test ride.

If this helps, I think I've heard for most people, negative pressure should be ~50psi, then set positive pressure based on rider weight. A riding buddy who weighs ~140lbs runs around 100psi I think.

Giant's website should have an owner's manual with a pressure chart you can download.

rkj__

· #18 · Jun 22, 2006

fsrxc said:
The NRS is very sensitive to both positive and negative shock pressure, so either one out of range for your weight will make the bike ride mushy, or harsh, or crappy or whatever. It might take some messing around with pressures to get it working well enough to really evaluate on a test ride.

If this helps, I think I've heard for most people, negative pressure should be ~50psi, then set positive pressure based on rider weight. A riding buddy who weighs ~140lbs runs around 100psi I think.

Giant's website should have an owner's manual with a pressure chart you can download.

That would be for the sid. (most common) The nrs has also been sold with an in house giant shock in some countries, and the 04/05s had Fox shocks. On my float R, i believe the negative air is fixed at 50psi. ("NRS tuned") I can olny adjust positive air. If i remember correctly, the pressure in my shock is higher than my weight. (pressure in psi, weight in lbs.)

Clutchman83

· #19 · Jun 24, 2006

Test a Reign, I can't tell the difference from my hardtail when climbing. It's a bit heavy, but its very easy to adjust to your liking. I've got my rear set fairly plush now, but when I set it according to the instructions it was super firm. It's easy to make it soak up every pebble, or handle like a hardtail with some squish on the big stuff.

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.