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E-bikes on your local mountain bike trails?

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So bikes with slightly more power than what you agree with aren't "one of us"? Sounds exclusionary to me.
My motor good.
Your motor bad.

If/when I get an e-bike, it sure as hell isn't going to be some lame Class 1 crapper.
Then I'll have a chuckle seeing all these 'we should include everyone' hypocrites sing a different tune.
 

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Sounds like you guys have mastered losing. Congrats.
If I'm ever looking to lose access, now I know I can get advice on that from the guy in the corner patting himself on the back.
Certainly having the experience that he claims should lend to having an interesting perspective.

The problem is that he's not good at using that perspective to articulate the pros/cons of his stance without resorting to arguments from authority or ad hominem attacks. There's also a bit of "let's all just get along" bailey and motte arguments. It's difficult to track.

Thinking about Ogre's remarks, he's certainly right about countering many of my points. There's currently an unholy union between bikes and e-bikes, primarily because the manufacturers are the same. And because of that, the bike lobby and the e-bike lobby are quite entangled. Wishing them apart is probably hopeless and/or pointless theory.

Also, like most comparisons between the US and Europe, it's a fool's errand. If we had the same historical context for public land access, and the same special interest groups that are for and against (e)bikes in whatever land designation, then sure, yeah, let's model after whoever is leading the charge, but that's not the case here.
 

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Your Best Friend
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That’s because your a nobody.mountain bike guide.what are you in high school
Really? Also *you're, spaces, capitalization and punctuation. You should go back to high school.

I find it absolutely hilarious that when someone like yourself is frustrated in a discussion, they begin personal attacks.

What is extra hilarious is that you went to my profile and decided to make fun of me based on my listed profession. I'm betting that 80% of the people on this forum wish they could get paid to mountain bike. I'm also retired and do it because I want to so you definitely failed with that attack.

I would put you on my ignore list but your comments are just to precious to miss.

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So bikes with slightly more power than what you agree with aren't "one of us"? Sounds exclusionary to me.
It is exclusionary. I get that you don't agree but I think I make a very good case for relative trail impacts and note a huge distinction in bikes that are assisted vs bikes than can actually be driven with no rider power input.

Class 2 and beyond- basically people on scooters- is exactly what I think most trail users don't want anywhere near hikers and traditional bicyclists- and with good reason.
 

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It is exclusionary. I get that you don't agree but I think I make a very good case for relative trail impacts and note a huge distinction in bikes that are assisted vs bikes than can actually be driven with no rider power input.

Class 2 and beyond- basically people on scooters- is exactly what I think most trail users don't want anywhere near hikers and traditional bicyclists- and with good reason.


A lot of trail users don't want motors anywhere near motor-free trails. And with good reason imo.
 

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OOOOOOOh Gee Are Eee
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A lot of trail users don't want motors anywhere near motor-free trails. And with good reason imo.
A lot of trail users don't want bikes anywhere near trails. And they will tell you it's with good reason as well.

The world is full of compromises.

Here in Lane county most trails which are bike legal are also ebike legal. Few people even notice the difference in traffic.

I'm not in the school of thought who thinks every trail should necessarily be ebike legal, but most trails probably should be. The assumption by land managers around here is that trails should be ebike legal unless there is a specific reason otherwise and I think that's a good position.
 

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Your Best Friend
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A lot of trail users don't want bikes anywhere near trails. And they will tell you it's with good reason as well.
Yep. You're starting to get it, without realizing you are.

Combine the people who don't want bikes, with the people who don't want motorized vehicles and you begin to see why bike advocates are trying to draw that line in the sand. We don't need that extra fight for trail access.

We have an extremist environmental group in our area that has been able to use hyperbole and scare tactics to get Joe Public to believe that any new bike trail now defacto includes motorized access. They aren't necessarily wrong. I personally can't tell the difference between a class 1,2 or 3 ebike as they blow past. I certainly don't expect a layperson to. At least once a month I'm having to explain to a trail poacher that their electric motorcycle is not an ebike and I'm very proactive about it. How many other people saw them and didn't say anything? How many people did that emotorcyce piss off, who will now be making negative comments to the BLM or voting on the next trails referendum? Unknown.

I honestly believe we're still in an experimental access period. The BLM and USFS have opened up a significant portion of trails to ebikes. Some may believe that this is now permanent and can only get more "open" from here...I see the opposite happening. More and more places are now backing off of ebike access and are closing trail systems to them. Ebikes are their own worst enemy.

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One helpful question: "Are they pedaling?"

If they are then there's a good chance these rules apply:

indypup said:
C. It's inevitable. E-MTB's are the future. Adopt the same rules as Europe. Basically, low power class 1 only with no throttle and treat them the same as acoustic bikes.

If they aren't then they're riding a scooter with varying degrees of optional pedal assist and no one wants that. Yes the world is complicated but pretending that simple rule isn't feasible is deliberately trying to make it more so.


Combine the people who don't want bikes, with the people who don't want motorized vehicles and you begin to see why bike advocates are trying to draw that line in the sand. We don't need that extra fight for trail access.

Combine the people who don't want bikes, with the people who don't want motorized vehicles and you begin to see why bike advocates are trying to draw that line in the sand. We don't need that extra fight for trail access.
The main issue with this distinction- besides being unnecessarily restrictive- is that it is transparently beneficial to traditional-only riders in that it excludes growing numbers of other users that on a pedal-assisted class 1 bicycle would have virtually the same impact as they do on the trail itself.

Keep the scooters off, allow pedal assisted class 1 bikes- that's a winning combination that isn't inherently discriminatory and gives large numbers of restraint-minded ebikers skin in the game.
 

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One helpful question: "Are they pedaling?"

If they are then there's a good chance these rules apply:

indypup said:
C. It's inevitable. E-MTB's are the future. Adopt the same rules as Europe. Basically, low power class 1 only with no throttle and treat them the same as acoustic bikes.

If they aren't then they're riding a scooter with varying degrees of optional pedal assist and no one wants that. Yes the world is complicated but pretending that simple rule isn't feasible is deliberately trying to make it more so.


What's your definition of pedaling? Pedal assist levels vary, see post #274
 

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What's your definition of pedaling? Pedal assist levels vary, see post #274
My practical definition: Their legs are turning
My legal definition: They're on a class 1 pedal assisted bike only

It's possible that people will be pedaling on an overpowered bike and they could try to skirt the rules but not every variable can be controlled and this doesn't change that what's posted below- and seemingly governing an entire continent without our overdramatic semantics and wordplay to complicate it- is a sound, simple approach.

indypup said:
C. It's inevitable. E-MTB's are the future. Adopt the same rules as Europe. Basically, low power class 1 only with no throttle and treat them the same as acoustic bikes.
 

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Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

There are three private trail networks around me. I've seen plenty of e-bikes and ridden with a few of them. Class 1 is a total non-issue. The sooner all of the chest thumping, egos, misinformation and "what ifs" get pushed aside the sooner some sort of progress with reasonable decisions can be made.

Are e-bikes going to be ok everywhere? No, and that location's management needs to make that choice for itself. It's best not to confuse things with total BS equating e-bikes to a straight up motorcycle or anything other than the fact that it's an e-bike which isn't quite like anything else.
 

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Yep. You're starting to get it, without realizing you are.

Combine the people who don't want bikes, with the people who don't want motorized vehicles and you begin to see why bike advocates are trying to draw that line in the sand. We don't need that extra fight for trail access.
The people who want bikes but not ebikes are in fact almost exclusively people on mountain bikers.

Are you suggesting mountain bikers are going to start advocating against trail access for mountain bikes just to spite eMTB?

Otherwise, who are these mysterious people who are ok with bikes but not ebikes? Sierra club certainly isn't going to change their stance. Nor are the horseback groups.
 

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If they aren't then they're riding a scooter with varying degrees of optional pedal assist and no one wants that.
Bullshit. Lots of people want exactly that.
And what's up with yelling scooter?

Obviously you mean that as in insult to anyone who might choose a slightly bigger motor than you've deemed acceptable.
I guess for you the whole 'we need to get together and stick together' thing only works one way, huh?
 

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Are you suggesting mountain bikers are going to start advocating against trail access for mountain bikes just to spite eMTB?
Weird how you came to that idea.

No, we just advocate for no ebikes. As we keep saying here.

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Otherwise, who are these mysterious people who are ok with bikes but not ebikes?
Around here we call them 'land managers'.

Right or wrong, they call a motor a motor, and they have a bug up their asses when it comes to motors.
I'd rather they didn't, but they do, so why would anyone aside from an utter moron want mountain bikes equated with motors in any way?

Again, I'm fine sharing trails with ebikes.
Not interested in fighting their fights for them though, and have for years wondered why so many e-bikers seem incapable taking care of their own business without trying to suck mountain bikers in to the deal. Have fun e-biking wherever you can convince land managers to allow it, just don't screw mountain bikers in the process. Really not very complicated.

Then once you get your Class 1 access, you all can start bitching about Class 2 scooter riders and doing your best to exclude them. :rolleyes:
 

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Weird how you came to that idea.

No, we just advocate for no ebikes. As we keep saying here.
You suggested some unholy coalition of "People who don't want bikes and people who don't want motors" would threaten mountain bike trail access/ advocacy. We know who the former is. The latter... is pretty much folks like you. So are you in fact advocating against mountain bike trails?
 

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No, we just advocate for no ebikes. As we keep saying here.
I wouldn't go that far.
I wouldn't and don't fight against e-bikes, as a mountain biker, I'm just not interested in having to do their advocacy work for them, which is what many seem to think they are owed for some reason.

I think the position our regional trail group has taken on the issue is reasonable.
They support e-bike access, but have aren't interested in taking over all the heavy lifting in place of the people who actually should be doing it.

"NEMBA recognizes that electric mountain bikes (eMTBs) are growing in popularity and our position has evolved to address the opportunities and challenges associated with this new trail use. NEMBA believes that class 1 eMTBs differ significantly from other motorized vehicles and offer a recreational experience similar to traditional mountain biking. While the experience is similar, NEMBA remains concerned about land managers' perceptions of user conflict and environmental impact. It is important to recognize that NEMBA does not set policy for access on properties and we support land managers’ decisions and rules about mountain bike access on their lands. We strongly encourage all groups of trail users to know and abide by the policies set by land managers for access and trail use.

NEMBA believes class 1 eMTB are a unique class of trail use, closely related to traditional mountain biking but separate and distinct. NEMBA feels that access to trails for class 1 eMTB riders in New England needs to increase. We call for eMTB enthusiasts to come together and advocate for the access they deserve. This effort needs to be led by people who have a passion for eMTB access. NEMBA looks to work cooperatively with this new eMTB advocacy group to support their efforts and share information. We envision a relationship where we can work together to find solutions to the challenges facing eMTB access while preserving access for traditional mountain biking as well."
 

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Making a mountain out of a mole hill.

There are three private trail networks around me. I've seen plenty of e-bikes and ridden with a few of them. Class 1 is a total non-issue. The sooner all of the chest thumping, egos, misinformation and "what ifs" get pushed aside the sooner some sort of progress with reasonable decisions can be made.

Are e-bikes going to be ok everywhere? No, and that location's management needs to make that choice for itself. It's best not to confuse things with total BS equating e-bikes to a straight up motorcycle or anything other than the fact that it's an e-bike which isn't quite like anything else.


I agree, and no chest thumping here. I only disagree with classifying ebikes as legally non-motorized because it makes it impossible for local land management to differentiate between bicycles & ebikes when designating trail use.

Like you said, in lots of places and situations they (ebikes) integrate seamlessly with regular bikes but in other places they don't. It only seems fair to judge each situation case by case and the vocal "it's got no motor!" crowd seems to think that isn't fair.
 

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The people who want bikes but not ebikes are in fact almost exclusively people on mountain bikers.

Are you suggesting mountain bikers are going to start advocating against trail access for mountain bikes just to spite eMTB?

Otherwise, who are these mysterious people who are ok with bikes but not ebikes? Sierra club certainly isn't going to change their stance. Nor are the horseback groups.
Most of them I’ve worked with. They grudgingly accept mountain bikes and do what they can to reduce opportunities, but they’re immovable on ebikes. That’s equestrians and “hikers” (who continue to deny they’re just anti-MTB despite all the evidence).
 
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