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Discussion starter · #21 ·
See Federal Register / Vol. 80 4503

"New technologies that
merge bicycles and motors, such as ebikes,
are considered motor vehicles
under § 212.1 of the TMR"

California cannot pass a law that would permit ebike usage on USFS lands.
Yeah, I did quite a bit of research on this before suggesting it. The TMR is a Regulation, not a Law:

"Federal laws are bills that have passed both houses of Congress, been signed by the president, passed over the president's veto, or allowed to become law without the president's signature. ... Regulations are rules made by executive departments and agencies, and are arranged by subject in the Code of Federal Regulations."

Congress can definitely pass LAWS that overrule state laws and that is the end of that as pointed out earlier by the supremacy clause. But when there isn't a federal law, state laws can overrule federal REGULATIONS that were written by any of the thousands of administrators of the various executive branches without congressional act.

I believe the only place in California where Federal regulations override state laws via supremacy would be in places where jurisdiction was definitely ceded to the federal government like Yosemite and Sequoia national parks.
 
Yeah, I did quite a bit of research on this before suggesting it. The TMR is a Regulation, not a Law:

"Federal laws are bills that have passed both houses of Congress, been signed by the president, passed over the president's veto, or allowed to become law without the president's signature. ... Regulations are rules made by executive departments and agencies, and are arranged by subject in the Code of Federal Regulations."

Congress can definitely pass LAWS that overrule state laws and that is the end of that as pointed out earlier by the supremacy clause. But when there isn't a federal law, state laws can overrule federal REGULATIONS that were written by any of the thousands of administrators of the various executive branches without congressional act.

I believe the only place in California where Federal regulations override state laws via supremacy would be in places where jurisdiction was definitely ceded to the federal government like Yosemite and Sequoia national parks.
And every other type of federal land, such as National Forests...

You know, lands managed by the Forest Service. Who determine usage policy.

No, CA isn't going to be able to overturn their refs. I doubt they have any interest in doing so, either.

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And every other type of federal land, such as National Forests...

You know, lands managed by the Forest Service. Who determine usage policy.

No, CA isn't going to be able to overturn their refs. I doubt they have any interest in doing so, either.
Exactly.

"notb"'s combination of naïveté(as demonstrated by his lack of experience with MROSD's anti-bike-of-any-kind bias) and ignorance (claiming above that signage is required by the AB 1906 - it's not, see 21207.5) is spectacular.

The reflectors and kickstand are just icing on the fail cake.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Glad the photo was entertaining. I didn't realize reflectors were controversial, but I do take perverse joy in being a dork with a kickstand. Thanks to brownpownow I'm going to leave it on. Winning!

I spoke with a Mid Peninsula staff member today and here's what they told me:
- They know they have a signage issue, especially since the open space abuts land where they are allowed.
- They have a couple of board members that mountain bike and the admin I spoke with rides an E-Bike, so they are familiar with E-bikes and what they are and are not. One of the local shops got some of the employees and board members out on them a while back.
- The regulation banning E-Bikes was written in 2014 and was more preemptive than anything else. They were seeing all kinds of electric devices like Segways and hover boards at the time, and didn't know what kind of impact E-Bikes would have so they wrote a regulation.
- There are a variety of concerns like uphill speed when passing hikers (safety), and the fact that they want to keep it a "pure" non-motorized experience, but these are not easily quantifiable so may not factor into any future decisions.
- The regulations are typically updated every 6-8 years. The last update was in 2014, so it could be a while before anything gets changed, but the admin was going to try to get an E-Bike committee going for the 2019/20 fiscal year. This could lead to regulation changes sooner (hopefully).

I asked what the process was and he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.

He is putting together an E-Bike mailing list and once that is ready I'll give out the email address you can use to get added. This will be used to notify people of any meetings where E-Bike issues will be discussed so people who are interested can show up to show support or speak against.
 
I do take perverse joy in being a dork with a kickstand.
"dork" is too kind of a description but you do you. Mountain bikers don't use kickstands because when riding rowdy trails, heck even when riding tame trails, they don't want that superfluous thing to deploy.

he said the board is always interested in public input, so the more people that show up and show support the more likely it is that change will happen.
And you believed that?

Hilarious! (see previous observation about naïveté)
 
Ha, just show up and you will get trails, good lord.

Did he mention that all the anti-mtbers show up every meeting and get what they want, almost every time.
 
now let's get back on track and return to the OP's issue of how best to deal with advocacy
Yes, please do. I took all the same old re-hashed arguments and moved them into a place us moderators lovingly call the Black Hole. Other mods can see what transpired and review it, but it is forever lost to the public.

If you want to talk about the definition of a motorized Vehicle, do it in another thread, this one is specifically for advocacy in a specific place.
 
Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.
 
Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.
And when you get cited for poaching?
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Yeah I got one of those warning tickets at Longridge, I honestly didn't know e-bikes weren't allowed. I asked WHY? why are there not allowed, he didn't have an answer but told me that they are probably going to allow them.

I asked what will happen if I ride here again? You'll get another warning. Ok I'll be back, have been back a number of times, got one more warning, different ranger this time. Also asked him why, since ebikes have no more impact on the trails than regular bikes, he agreed. Didn't know the reason. This uphill passing speed argument in nonsense.

I'll just keep going back, and they can write me as many warnings as they want to. I'll look for future meetings I can attend.
That's interesting and is similar to my experience. I think as long as you are polite they aren't going to issue tickets. I haven't gone back and won't until this is resolved, but I do miss riding there since the trails are so fun.

Whether E-Bikes are allowed or not, the new technology will make spotting E-bikes much more difficult so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run. Lapierre E-Zesty expected in Jan 2019:
Bicycle tire Bicycle frame Tire Wheel Bicycle wheel rim
 
That's interesting and is similar to my experience. I think as long as you are polite they aren't going to issue tickets. I haven't gone back and won't until this is resolved, but I do miss riding there since the trails are so fun.

Whether E-Bikes are allowed or not, the new technology will make spotting E-bikes much more difficult so it will be interesting to see how this plays out in the long run. Lapierre E-Zesty expected in Jan 2019:
View attachment 1215472
What's going to happen is, they will try to ban ebikes but if that doesn't work, just ban bikes. This is what us "haters" have been talking about.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
I got a reply from MidPeninsula today. They had a discussion and decided to use the general bike issues mailing list for E-Bike issues as well. Anyone who wants to be added to the list to be notified of upcoming meetings that discuss bike issues can email them at "info@openspace.org" and ask to be added.
 
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