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E-150 rebound when cold

779 Views 15 Replies 6 Participants Last post by kelstr, Dec 22, 2009

AZenduro

Discussion Starter · Dec 21, 2009

I have an 07 Enduro which will not totally rebound (and seems a little sluggish) when the temp. is below 20 degrees F, it is maybe .5 inch from total rebound with the weight of the bike on it, if you lift the front wheel off the ground it will finish the rebound, not at all a problem when the temps are warmer. Would lighter oil in the fork help? Or any other ideas? THANKS!!

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PB Matrix

· #2 · Dec 21, 2009

Yes, lighter oil inside the rebound cartridge would help, as well as just using a thinner grease on the seals. Stock oil in the rebound is somewhat close to a 10W oil, I use Sram 5W year round with no noticable difference between cold and warm weather.

Also, check your fork pressure, it will be down a bit in the cold, but as the fork warms up when riding, it should be near normal.

BTW, The lubricating oil in the lowers has no effect on the fork when it is cold, in fact I use cheap easy to find synthetic ATF, and it is rated at 34W more or less.

shift96

· #3 · Dec 21, 2009

Or just turn the red dial counterclockwise a couple clicks

shift96

· #4 · Dec 21, 2009

ATF is rated at 34W? that seems a little high.
I throw whatever fork oil I have around in the lowers. I've used shock oil as well. It really doesn't matter what weight IMO.

chameleoneel

· #5 · Dec 21, 2009

shift96 said:
Or just turn the red dial counterclockwise a couple clicks

He's probably already running it full fast. The E150 tends to need it.

Yes, if you are going to be riding in weather that cold (I do here in Alaska) you should get the lightest weight fork oil you can find. do the same for the AFR, if you are running that shock.

shift96

· #6 · Dec 21, 2009

Well I guess the question is: Is the adjuster backed all the way out.

Speci- Suspension Tech

· #7 · Dec 21, 2009

The oil used in the damper cartridge is ~2.5 weight. Your fork's rebound would benefit from a fresh oil bath via 50hr service, or due a full service if you have many ride hours.

shift96

· #8 · Dec 21, 2009

Thank you Speci Tech. Too much misinformation floating around here.

shift96

· #9 · Dec 21, 2009

PB Matrix said:
Yes, lighter oil inside the rebound cartridge would help, as well as just using a thinner grease on the seals. Stock oil in the rebound is somewhat close to a 10W oil, I use Sram 5W year round with no noticable difference between cold and warm weather.

Also, check your fork pressure, it will be down a bit in the cold, but as the fork warms up when riding, it should be near normal.

BTW, The lubricating oil in the lowers has no effect on the fork when it is cold, in fact I use cheap easy to find synthetic ATF, and it is rated at 34W more or less.

My question is how do you know what weight is in the cartridge stock? Nobody is that good to determine what weight oil is by looking at it.

PB Matrix

· #10 · Dec 21, 2009

I throw a drop or two on a window next to my Sram 5 W and see how long it takes to drip down before it stops moving. SRAM 2.5 W and Finish Line 2.5 W Fork oil is very very close to water, SRAM 15W goes down like a slug. 10 W is somewhere in between. Now, the stock 2.5 W that Spec Tech claimed to use may say 2.5 on the bottle, but I believe it is closer to Fox 7.5, which is relatively slow on this drip test as well.

Please note that the Spec-Tech is not the same person from day to day and that they may be mis-informed as well. I guarantee you that a stock E-150 2007 rebound cartridge did not come with 2.5W fork oil in it. But, go ahead, use 2.5 W in there if you are a light rider. It should be OK in the cold, but if you find yourself using all of your travel once the weather warms up, switch to 5W or a blend of 5W with 2.5W to get what you want. Good Luck.

PS When you remove the top cap off the rebound cartridge, make sure the shaft is fully inserted, if your 22mm wrench slips, it will scratch the shaft.

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shift96

· #11 · Dec 22, 2009

PB Matrix said:
I throw a drop or two on a window next to my Sram 5 W and see how long it takes to drip down before it stops moving. SRAM 2.5 W and Finish Line 2.5 W Fork oil is very very close to water, SRAM 15W goes down like a slug. 10 W is somewhere in between. Now, the stock 2.5 W that Spec Tech claimed to use may say 2.5 on the bottle, but I believe it is closer to Fox 7.5, which is relatively slow on this drip test as well.

Please note that the Spec-Tech is not the same person from day to day and that they may be mis-informed as well. I guarantee you that a stock E-150 2007 rebound cartridge did not come with 2.5W fork oil in it. But, go ahead, use 2.5 W in there if you are a light rider. It should be OK in the cold, but if you find yourself using all of your travel once the weather warms up, switch to 5W or a blend of 5W with 2.5W to get what you want. Good Luck.

PS When you remove the top cap off the rebound cartridge, make sure the shaft is fully inserted, if your 22mm wrench slips, it will scratch the shaft.

Not trying to insult but the window thing.....I mean really. Also in my past experience, the people who made the product usually have a small idea of how it was put together and what type of fluid is recommended. 2.5W is not uncommon to have in a damper. But hey, whatever works for ya:thumbsup:

kelstr

· #12 · Dec 22, 2009

shift96 said:
Not trying to insult but the window thing.....I mean really. Also in my past experience, the people who made the product usually have a small idea of how it was put together and what type of fluid is recommended. 2.5W is not uncommon to have in a damper. But hey, whatever works for ya:thumbsup:

Actually PB is correct , -----the factory fill oil in the damper is 7 wt fox oil .
I have used a true 2.5 wt oil in the damper--( along with all the different wt oils ) and it did really alter the compression and re-bound load force dampining to where it was way off for me .

I talked with Mick on the phone several times on many of the mods I and he due to these forks , --( Mick is Mike McAndrews---the Suspension design engineer for Specialized )and Mick and myself agree that 5 wt suspension oil is a good baseline for the damper side oil with 45 to 50 psi of nitrogen in the chamber, ----------if a guy wants alittle different window of adjustement you should re-valve the stacks to get your compression , spike valve and re-bound where you need them to be .

2.5 may work in really cold weather ----------but at about 50 degreese and on if you ride real agressivly it just does not have enough load force dampining ------------------( I also ran it in 100 degree weather and I could not ride the bike -----------I would have to add at least 50% more load force on the compression to keep me up with 85 psi air in the thing and I weigh 145 -----------so thats not good .
The rebound was so fast I could not keep the tire in the ground ----------( now this is in nasty DH hack -------------if a guy is trail riding it wont matter what oil you have in the thing ).

Alot of this technical and mod changes that gets done on these forks are something a guy will have to dial in for himself , keeping notes of all the one at a time changes to see what works and what does not.

What I find that really helps the e-150 rebound and not be sticky is curing the stiction in the alighnment of the stanchions,--- and I machine down the plastic air piston and run a smaller "O" ring , ------

The air piston has alot of stiction , and the stanchion's can have alot of stiction in the bushings at the lowers .

The stiction really makes the fork hard to tune correctly -----------------------all suspension hs this problem ------------its the first this you work on before dialing any valving or changing the wt of fluids ---------------( or cutting a section out of the teflon seal ring on the compression piston --------------Don't get me started on this mod --

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PB Matrix

· #13 · Dec 22, 2009

kelstr said:
Actually PB is correct , --

'Nuff said, :thumbsup:

Kelstr,

I need to show you a picture of a 2007 Air cartridge I have, it has no holes in the top cap and huge holes near the top of the bigger cylinder. I think it is a prototype, as all of the ones I have seen have holes in the top cap......Have you seen one like this?

PB

shift96

· #14 · Dec 22, 2009

7w is not 10w and Putting oil on a piece of glass to see what weight it is, is absurd. You guy's are not the normal. Maybe you both have 10 hrs a day to screw with your bikes but most people don't. You can vary the oil weight a little in each direction and still adjust it to your liking. What you two do to these E150 forks is borderline OCD behavior. Just ride the damn thing:thumbsup:

Suspension setup is a trade off. You will never have it setup to handle everything great without compromising something else. Part of being a skilled rider is being able to adapt to it and deal with it. The sooner this is realized the sooner you stop chasing the dragon of perfection. I have plenty of experience in suspension setup at the expert MX level so please do not dismiss the knowledge of others. There are others here who know something other than you two

kelstr

· #15 · Dec 22, 2009

PB Matrix said:
'Nuff said, :thumbsup:

Kelstr,

I need to show you a picture of a 2007 Air cartridge I have, it has no holes in the top cap and huge holes near the top of the bigger cylinder. I think it is a prototype, as all of the ones I have seen have holes in the top cap......Have you seen one like this?

PB

Send me a pic , I have one S-works 09 air cartridge that is almost like you are discribing but it has the larger dampener rod also .
It also has a different AA chamber and was really difficult to get all bled out to get the travel adjust working correctly .

kelstr

· #16 · Dec 22, 2009

shift96 said:
7w is not 10w and Putting oil on a piece of glass to see what weight it is, is absurd. You guy's are not the normal. Maybe you both have 10 hrs a day to screw with your bikes but most people don't. You can vary the oil weight a little in each direction and still adjust it to your liking. What you two do to these E150 forks is borderline OCD behavior. Just ride the damn thing:thumbsup:

Suspension setup is a trade off. You will never have it setup to handle everything great without compromising something else. Part of being a skilled rider is being able to adapt to it and deal with it. The sooner this is realized the sooner you stop chasing the dragon of perfection. I have plenty of experience in suspension setup at the expert MX level so please do not dismiss the knowledge of others. There are others here who know something other than you two

This bicycle suspension is really not that bad at all to get working really well.
You would really freak if you knew the engineering and changes I have to do and testing ,travel and effort thats involved in getting several Showa "A" kits dialed for the really fast AMA riders that win at the national level -----------there are no "TRADE OFF" at that level ---------anything is possible and the suspension can be set up to work as needed.:thumbsup:

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