One bike climbs well and descends well and another bike climbs well but descends poorly. Why is there a discussion about what bike to buy?
DW Link vs FSR Brain
For those MTBRers that may be interested, here is a question I posed to DM over at PUSH which I hope he answers... If he does, I will share with the forum.. In short, I am looking at FS 29ers and tested 2 bikes (Epic and Sultan). Having had an Epic, I knew what to expect and it actually surpassed my expectations. In a single sentence description, The Epic climbed and handled amazingly and descended decently but the brain certainly adds harshness to the suspension. Conversely, the Sultan climbed and tracked very well too and descended far superior the Epic but I was suprised by how plush the DW link suspension felt (maybe too plush IMHO). I just am not sure if I would get used to the plushness or if the DW link could be firmed up without compromising the effectiveness of the suspension... Thus..my NOVICE inquiry to PUSH is listed below...
================= Dear Push.....=================================
I was hoping to ask you one last question…. If you may recall, you assisted me with a Push-over on an RP3 linked to a Moots Cinco. I was coming off a Specialized Epic and you firmed up the Moots to be more XC worthy. Well, in the end it was not the bike for me so I sold the Moots Bob-Cinco and looking to purchase a new 29 FS bike. I have tested out a Specialized Epic 29er and half-tested (bad fit) a DW-Turner Sultan.
From my view and knowing I am talking to an expert, here is my 2nd grade assessment for a starting point. The Specialized Epic climbed and handled great. The bike tracks flawlessly. On downhills, the brain is certainly not plush and maybe even harsh under certain trail conditions. The Fox RP3-brain shock sometimes even clunks upon impact on sharp objects (not sure what causes this issue..maybe only partial opening of the valve?).
That takes me to the Turner Sultan. The DW-Sultan climbs very well also, handled fine and descended far superior to the Epic. One thing about Sultan is that is almost felt too plush which I was not expecting for such a great climbing bike. Is this typical of a DW link suspension and does PUSH ever rework the shocks from DW Link bikes to ‘firm’ them (eg make them less linear during travel) OR is this counterpoint to the DW Link design? I was surprised how limited the Pro-Pedal range was on the Sultan.. Turning pro-pedal on/off had limited effect on the firmness (dampening) of the suspension. I simply found that odd but realize that DW link advocates argue the design climbs so well when the rider is seated and spinning that pro-pedal is obsolete. I am on the fence as to whether I agree with this statement. Anyways, I would welcome your thoughts on the topic.
Thank you for sharing your technical insights
WHS
================= Dear Push.....=================================
I was hoping to ask you one last question…. If you may recall, you assisted me with a Push-over on an RP3 linked to a Moots Cinco. I was coming off a Specialized Epic and you firmed up the Moots to be more XC worthy. Well, in the end it was not the bike for me so I sold the Moots Bob-Cinco and looking to purchase a new 29 FS bike. I have tested out a Specialized Epic 29er and half-tested (bad fit) a DW-Turner Sultan.
From my view and knowing I am talking to an expert, here is my 2nd grade assessment for a starting point. The Specialized Epic climbed and handled great. The bike tracks flawlessly. On downhills, the brain is certainly not plush and maybe even harsh under certain trail conditions. The Fox RP3-brain shock sometimes even clunks upon impact on sharp objects (not sure what causes this issue..maybe only partial opening of the valve?).
That takes me to the Turner Sultan. The DW-Sultan climbs very well also, handled fine and descended far superior to the Epic. One thing about Sultan is that is almost felt too plush which I was not expecting for such a great climbing bike. Is this typical of a DW link suspension and does PUSH ever rework the shocks from DW Link bikes to ‘firm’ them (eg make them less linear during travel) OR is this counterpoint to the DW Link design? I was surprised how limited the Pro-Pedal range was on the Sultan.. Turning pro-pedal on/off had limited effect on the firmness (dampening) of the suspension. I simply found that odd but realize that DW link advocates argue the design climbs so well when the rider is seated and spinning that pro-pedal is obsolete. I am on the fence as to whether I agree with this statement. Anyways, I would welcome your thoughts on the topic.
Thank you for sharing your technical insights
WHS
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
I agree with your logic and am leaning towards the Sultan but was curious if the shock hosting the DW-link suspension can be firmed up without compromising the ride characteristics. I think I falll into the FS minority who do not view plushness as the holy grail of design...It might be a resistance to change on my part but there is a part of me that translates plushness to a degree of ineffiiency and I realize this may not be true when it comes to the DW Link design.. that is why I am asking... both bikes are excellent (and expensive) so I want to make the right call for my style of riding...
Agreed. However, I would suggest trying the 29 FSR or something other than the EPIC. The EPIC and the Sultan are two bikes with very different purposes.schneidw said:I agree with your logic and am leaning towards the Sultan but was curious if the shock hosting the DW-link suspension can be firmed up without compromising the ride characteristics. I think I falll into the FS minority who do not view plushness as the holy grail of design...It might be a resistance to change on my part but there is a part of me that translates plushness to a degree of ineffiiency and I realize this may not be true when it comes to the DW Link design.. that is why I am asking... both bikes are excellent (and expensive) so I want to make the right call for my style of riding...
The reason you want to firm it up is to make pedaling more efficient or to make it ride firmer. If pedaling efficiency wasn't a problem and you don't want to change ride characteristics, what do you want to accomplish by firming it up?
That makes no sense, If you firm up the suspension, it's going to affect the ride characteristics, in terms of less usable, travel, etc. You can put more air-pressure in there if you want, that would probably do it, but obviously with effectively less travel it's going to be a bit harsher. You can use the propedal, and that is also obviously going to "firm" it up. The Sultan is not a race bike, but you can race on it. The Epic on the other hand is pretty much a race-bike.schneidw said:I agree with your logic and am leaning towards the Sultan but was curious if the shock hosting the DW-link suspension can be firmed up without compromising the ride characteristics.
This seems to be one of those "XC hardtailer turned FS rider" posts where there is a "hope" that if the bike is less plush, firmer, bobs less, is lighter, or whatever, that the rider will somehow magically be faster. Small differences (such as what is mentioned here) do not have a big effect on this. If you drop 2lbs off your bike it won't magically allow you to keep up with stronger friends. If your rear suspension doesn't bob and waste any energy it won't make "the difference" for you as a rider. That said, the sultan is very efficient, it does especially well when mashing the pedals hard uphill, as it turns more of your pedal-stroke into forward energy. The "Brain" accomplishes the same with a valve that "locks" the suspension from compressing due to the pedaling forces. This inherently adds harshness and prevents the suspension from moving as freely. While the Epic is a race bike (so I assume racing is the most important thing?), it's still not going to be a big difference compared to the sultan. The sultan will end up a little heavier, but due to what I explained above, it's still going to be 99% you as far as how "fast" it is.
Perception is everything. When I first switched from a non- DW link bike to a DW link bike....I had the perception that it was too plush....kinda like what Jayem says above. I had a paranoid feeling that because of this, it was not as efficient. After being on the DW link bike for 9 months now....I've gotten over this.....but then I had a relapse a few weeks ago. I tested the 10' version of the RP23 on the same bike I currently ride....which has the 09' version of the RP23. Same bike....same DW link, only difference is the new valve in the 10' version mading it plusher and less harsh during the initial compression of the shock. Again....I thought and worried that it was less efficient because it felt that way. Without hard data to look at the difference between the two, and un-trusting of my perception....I tried my best to compare the displacement I was observing in the rear as I rode....very unscientific here....but I tried. I compared this on the newer bike as opposed to my older bike....couldnt really see anthing different. Climbs I took on one bike vs. another did not feel any less efficient...but riding along...the thing just felt cushier.
Perception is a tough thing to overcome. Pilots die every year because they perceive the aircraft is doing something, despite their instruments telling them something different. I know that pulling the trigger on a bike when your perception tells you that there may be a negative there is a sick feeling....so hopefully my experience can help assuage some of that should you decide to go with one bike over the other.
FTR....I still have my older, non-DW link bike and love it just as much...and can't really tell a difference in efficiency on the climb outside of subtle difference which are hard to describe other than, "It's less harsh"...but I sure as heck can tell a difference on the down....guess which bike get's used more?
Perception is a tough thing to overcome. Pilots die every year because they perceive the aircraft is doing something, despite their instruments telling them something different. I know that pulling the trigger on a bike when your perception tells you that there may be a negative there is a sick feeling....so hopefully my experience can help assuage some of that should you decide to go with one bike over the other.
FTR....I still have my older, non-DW link bike and love it just as much...and can't really tell a difference in efficiency on the climb outside of subtle difference which are hard to describe other than, "It's less harsh"...but I sure as heck can tell a difference on the down....guess which bike get's used more?
Jayem/Vespa:: Thank you for the feedback and insight. Please allow me to clarify that my inquiry is not based on seeking on speed for racing whatsover, contrary, I am seeking out a well balanced XC bike (not race nor all-mtn). As a sidepoint which I didnt make in my post, I personally don't view the Epic 29er as a "race" bike even though the Epic 26 (which I have owned in the past) certainly fits the category)...my impression after riding the Epic 29er that with the bigger wheels tied to the FSR-brain, and how SPecialized integrated this setup into a more compact frame by 29er standards, makes for a sweet XC machine.. I am by no way waving a Specialized flag, just stating my impression... Now back to the Sultan DW link (my preference)... I was looking to hear from riders with more experience wiht DW link bikes than myself whether the plush factor was the most desirable feature of the design and how senstive the suspension is to firming up the rear shock some... I agree with your point, too firm and the ride quality is compromised.. I am trying to get a sense of the range of sensitivity to dampening... Thanks again for the feedback...
H*ly Crap!!! You are right on the mark!! Bullseye. Exactly what I was trying to post but unable to describe.......My perception is/was precisely what you posted...From my novice technical perspective transitioning from the very firm Epic29er test ride to the equally/or more (but different) impressive Sultan was an immediate feeling the Sultan exhibited such a plush ride characteristic that I incorrectly?? inferred it must be due to significant rear-end movement,and thus, my perception was the plushness was directly related to frequent suspension activity and all this movement equates to suspension inefficiency. It certainly appears in this case that perception is not reality based on everything I have read...but it was my first impression...albiet a wrong one..
My opinion has always been suspension lockouts are a kludgy and inelegant band aid to the suspension issue. They're always going to hace issues, and they're always going to be a compromise. The FSR, though a great design in it's time, and still a competent one, is trying to mask it's deficiencies through shock valving. DW, on the other hand, has crafted a very elegant solution where the suspension acts in balance, and is beautifully simple.
What you're seeing as inefficiency and softness in the Sultan is actually the suspension being freed to do what it's supposed to do. What you're seeing as efficient and firm in the Epic is actually the compromise the designers had to make with the system.
What you're seeing as inefficiency and softness in the Sultan is actually the suspension being freed to do what it's supposed to do. What you're seeing as efficient and firm in the Epic is actually the compromise the designers had to make with the system.
Insightful comment.. One takeway point that I have been slow to learn is the law of compromise.. In the case of the FSR-brain.. The anti-bob compression dampening provided by the valving in the brain produces a great climbing suspension system and a snappy out of the saddle ride characteristic, which are features that I personally appreceiate.. the downside IMHO, is the brain isn't all that 'smart' when it comes to downhill.. seems like it needs a relatively-big hit to open the valve and activate which is the compromise in my mind..
In the case of DW link which I have no valid experience, I have yet to read where the compromise lies... guess I will have to either buy a bike blindly or wait till the Pivot/Turner demo truck rolls through my neighborhood...
In the case of DW link which I have no valid experience, I have yet to read where the compromise lies... guess I will have to either buy a bike blindly or wait till the Pivot/Turner demo truck rolls through my neighborhood...
They really are different bikes. The Turner is going to handle rough trails much better. It will still climb great, but it will be heavier.schneidw said:H*ly Crap!!! You are right on the mark!! Bullseye. Exactly what I was trying to post but unable to describe.......My perception is/was precisely what you posted...From my novice technical perspective transitioning from the very firm Epic29er test ride to the equally/or more (but different) impressive Sultan was an immediate feeling the Sultan exhibited such a plush ride characteristic that I incorrectly?? inferred it must be due to significant rear-end movement,and thus, my perception was the plushness was directly related to frequent suspension activity and all this movement equates to suspension inefficiency. It certainly appears in this case that perception is not reality based on everything I have read...but it was my first impression...albiet a wrong one..
Maybe check out the Pivot 29'er as an option? Pivots tend to run a little firmer than the Turners, while still using DW link - so it will still be a good climber.
Unless you're racing, buy the Turner. It's better suspension from a better company, and the construction and quality is slightly sick. Once you and the bike reach and understanding, you will love it, and ponder why you ever wanted a semi-locked out suspension to begin with.schneidw said:guess I will have to either buy a bike blindly or wait till the Pivot/Turner demo truck rolls through my neighborhood...
DISCLAIMER: I do not own a Turner.
Please clarify...are you stating Turner over Specialized OR Turner over Pivot? Iheart mentioned despite the similar DW link design, the Turner and Pivot have different ride characteristics..
Everyone is suggesting you go with the Turner and that you'll get used to the travel.schneidw said:Please clarify...are you stating Turner over Specialized OR Turner over Pivot? Iheart mentioned despite the similar DW link design, the Turner and Pivot have different ride characteristics..
at 4.7" travel, it will be more similar to your Cinco/Moots.
If you really think it's too plush - try the Pivot. Still a DW, but firmer.
http://www.pivotcycles.com/mach429_story.php
On the Mark!
Once again, just killer advice iHart, THANK YOU. You helped me immensely through the nightmare I was experiencing trying to dial in the Moots Cinco that I eventually was able to bail out on without taking a financial hit... I will not make the same mistake twice! I took your advice and tested a Pivot Mach 429 and as you stated, the firmer Pivot ride configuraiton is more to my XC liking than the more plush and taller Sultan..Both excellent bikes. I am working with Pivot and Chris at Speedgoat to dial in the correct bike sizing whch has always been an issue for me due to very long legs... Speedgoat has an technical CAD software program that plugs rider and bike dimensions and develops a detailed drawing that shows the pros/cons of bike sizes... Please check your PM.. I wanna send you something in the spirit of thanks and the holidays...
I will send a ride report after I received the 2010 Mach 429.. For anyone interested, I can post the CAD drawings
Once again, just killer advice iHart, THANK YOU. You helped me immensely through the nightmare I was experiencing trying to dial in the Moots Cinco that I eventually was able to bail out on without taking a financial hit... I will not make the same mistake twice! I took your advice and tested a Pivot Mach 429 and as you stated, the firmer Pivot ride configuraiton is more to my XC liking than the more plush and taller Sultan..Both excellent bikes. I am working with Pivot and Chris at Speedgoat to dial in the correct bike sizing whch has always been an issue for me due to very long legs... Speedgoat has an technical CAD software program that plugs rider and bike dimensions and develops a detailed drawing that shows the pros/cons of bike sizes... Please check your PM.. I wanna send you something in the spirit of thanks and the holidays...
I will send a ride report after I received the 2010 Mach 429.. For anyone interested, I can post the CAD drawings
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
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