[DH_WP]

I found this in the Latest MTBA , and wonder if what they say here is the same for the IBIS..

if so then then there should be only one sag measurement and not a range based on what I have read here?

 

[Speedub.Nate]

I'm subscribing -- I want to read Dave's answer.

I had a couple of years on a dw-link Hollowpoint and another year on a dw-link MkIII. Many other riders of those bikes have agreed with my sentiment in the past that the dw-link rides best at around 30 to 33 percent sag. In fact, my Hollowpoint bobbed if I ran it at a traditional 25% setting. MBA has similar problems with their botched Hollowpoint review, due to an over-inflated shock.

For a couple of years, Dave was mum on this -- at least, I don't remember him ever contradicting those 1/3 travel sag observations.

But then out of nowhere, he wrote (here on MTBR, I beleive) that the dw-link could be run efficiently at whatever sag setting the rider chooses (within reason, I presume). I was shocked at that. I recall some other posters being confused by this.

I understand the stuff you quoted is more related to ride balancing than suspension performance, but I trust my observations over the years that the dw-link has a definite "sweet spot."

 

[robbieracer]

Those ads are probbably referring to the way the anti squat geometry stays consistent in the mid stroke.
This, along with very progressive chain lengthening makes the DW stuff on a Mojo very friendly, without a special sweet spot like a VPP. The progression of the shock would depnd on the frame: a Pivot could well be different to a Mojo..
I don't see any conflict with what has been asserted for the Mojo, just a bit of hype.

 

[BlueMountain]

The Pivot is definitely a very firm DWL bike. I'm sure part of this has to do with the linkage angles/locations and the leverage curve. It rides little like the Mojo and I think you could sag that sucker 50% and still feel like you're riding a 3" bike.

 

[BlueMountain]

Not that there is anything wrong with that.......

 

[derby]

I've found the Mojo isn't very sensitive to static sag depth for bob and any kickback sensation differences, at least not between about 20 to 30% sag that I've tried. Between significant sag changes I've had to adjust damping to compensate for weight center and spring preload changes (less sag using more preload or firmer coil spring repositions my weight balance more forward with less of my weight on the rear spring, and I need a click or two softer rear damping to regain optimized bump compliance, but kickback and bob remain almost nil).

Many owners of the MKiii insist that there is noticeable kickback and less compliance to bumps when using less than 30% sag. I haven't ridden an MKiii enough to verify for myself. The early Hollowpoint required very precise static sag depth according to DW when he set the sag one for my first dw-link demo. Perhaps the extremely stiff and firm riding Pivot bikes are very sensitive to sag depth too.

Maybe the inherent shock absorbing characteristic of carbon fiber minimizes the Mojo's feedback differences in comparison with less forgiving stiffer aluminum versions of dw-links? But CF’s added damping characteristics wouldn’t explain the steady rate of minimum bob over a wide static sag depth difference.

 

[DaveX]

I find that running less then 30% sag on my Mach 5 does indeed result in the feeling that the rear end rides high and that the front end is loaded. Actually It feels pretty lousy. Get down to 30% though and every thing comes together very nicely. I'm actually running around 35% sag now if not a tad more and I'm loving feel of the suspension. When I pedal it feels like a 3 inch travel bike. When I hit the rough stuff it feels like a 5 inch travel bike. Ideal if you ask me.

 

[Tread Mark]

I find that running less then 30% sag on my Mach 5 does indeed result in the feeling that the rear end rides high and that the front end is loaded. Actually It feels pretty lousy. Get down to 30% though and every thing comes together very nicely. I'm actually running around 35% sag now if not a tad more and I'm loving feel of the suspension. When I pedal it feels like a 3 inch travel bike. When I hit the rough stuff it feels like a 5 inch travel bike. Ideal if you ask me.

hey DaveX, tell us how did you get that magic carpet ride..? >>>what shock and set up and how much do u weigh geared up..? what fork and set up in front..? thanks

 

[_dw]

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that the position sensitive anti-squat that the dw-link uses requires a rider to set a specific sag. The only thing that really will make one dw-link bike have a different preferred sag than another is the wheel rate (leverage rate X spring curve). For a Sunday, the wheel rate is tuned so as to use more sag than say, an Azure, but there is no hard number. A rider can choose what they are comfortable with.

I've always been a strong proponent of setting suspension up with sag, but in the case of the older Hollowpoints, you need to remember that a LOT of mountain bikers were coming off of Giant NRS, which was very publicly marketed that it uses no sag and therfore was more efficient somehow. Obviously most riders now understand that this was complete BS, but at the time there was a lot of public misunderstanding to break through. We spent a lot of time explaining to people that they need to run sag to get the most out of their dw-link bikes, and that opposite of the suspensions that came befroe dw-link, you COULD run sag and it would not equate to "bob machine". There is a difference in the dw-link being "designed" to run some specific range of sag, and "needing" to run a specific range of sag. You can run anything you want. dw-link's worst possible setup is typically better than most other's best possible setup.

Basically, if you are a more aggressive rider, I suggest running a little more sag, say 28-35%. If you are a more XC type rider, I suggest a little less sag, maybe 22-28%. We have been known to run DH bikes up to 40% sag for specific courses, although we are around 30-35% most of the time.

Hope this clears some things up.

Dave

 

[_dw]

I found this in the Latest MTBA , and wonder if what they say here is the same for the IBIS..

if so then then there should be only one sag measurement and not a range based on what I have read here?

For me, I ride my Mojo, Pivot and MKiii all at 30 ish percent sag. That's my personal preference though. I might run more or less depending on where I lived.

You should run what feels comfortable for you. (but don't waste your traction by running les than 20%, that won't gain you anything at all)

Dave

 

[_dw]

I'm subscribing -- I want to read Dave's answer.

I had a couple of years on a dw-link Hollowpoint and another year on a dw-link MkIII. Many other riders of those bikes have agreed with my sentiment in the past that the dw-link rides best at around 30 to 33 percent sag. In fact, my Hollowpoint bobbed if I ran it at a traditional 25% setting. MBA has similar problems with their botched Hollowpoint review, due to an over-inflated shock.

That MBA review actually was done on a prototype FOX AVA that was completely blown. The reality is that nobody from Iron Horse ever looked over the bike before it was sent, and there is no reason that a straight from the assembly factory bike with a prototype shock should have found its way to a magazine for review anyways.

The test rider (Ed Arnet) did the entire review without realizing that the shock's damping circuits had failed. He overinflated the shock after riding to compensate for the fact that there was literally no damping at all in the shock! Absolutely zero damping, none, nil, zero compression, zero rebound. A devastating review at the time, but also a testament to the real capability within the suspension system. I mean, what other bike could a seasoned tester like Ed Arnet have gotten on, ridden for two weeks, and not realized that his shock was blown? Not many, that's for sure..

 

[DaveX]

hey DaveX, tell us how did you get that magic carpet ride..? >>>what shock and set up and how much do u weigh geared up..? what fork and set up in front..? thanks

Here's my current set up.

Rear Fox RP23 85psi propedal off

Front Fox 32 Talas RLC 110 psi

With gear I weigh around 170lbs

I'm still tinkering with the set up but I've got things close enough that I could be happy with it as is. Sometimes in the parking lot I feel like it's set up too soft. Or too soft compared to what I was used to on my old Moto-Lite. However it really shines out on the trail. I found it's especially capable on our steep rocky rooty New England climbs. Even if I have to get out of the saddle it hooks up wonderfully and just flat out doesn't bob.

Of course I've never had the chance ride an Ibis so I can't compare the two.

 

[Tread Mark]

Here's my current set up.

Rear Fox RP23 85psi propedal off

Front Fox 32 Talas RLC 110 psi

With gear I weigh around 170lbs

I'm still tinkering with the set up but I've got things close enough that I could be happy with it as is. Sometimes in the parking lot I feel like it's set up too soft. Or too soft compared to what I was used to on my old Moto-Lite. However it really shines out on the trail. I found it's especially capable on our steep rocky rooty New England climbs. Even if I have to get out of the saddle it hooks up wonderfully and just flat out doesn't bob.

Of course I've never had the chance ride an Ibis so I can't compare the two.

hey DaveX, thanks 4 sharing...a new shock at 85lbs. sounds about right...maybe try turning up your compression and dropping your air down in the front 4 more magic...good luck...