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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So day before yesterday this guy who's building a trail skipped work, and for 12 hours re-planted and refoliated trail so it wouldn't get shut down. The only person to help him was Kevin Shmuck from Evergreen, and it happened to be his birthday.
Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too, so he had to clean up another pile.
He tells people that tomorrow it may be shut down permanently and asks for help re-planting ferns, but nobody does. He's right, replanting and cleaning up was key in helping the trail to not get shut down.
It was a nice sunny day and people were riding the unfinished trail, and some people even stopped and made suggestions on trail building. This is after he spent nearly 100 hours on this trail in the month of March alone, and working full time in a bike store.

This was his story he told me yesterday, after i broke off work early, after i did a walk and talk to help save a race trail, a skills building trail, a trail for all skill levels, a trail that will not have one single puddle on it, a trail that will help fund maintenance for the entire park as years go by.

If this guy passed by your project that you put hundreds of hours into, which cost you money out of your pocket, was on fire. You ask him to help throw a few buckets of water. He would give you 10 minutes to help, 1 hour of help, an entire day to help. That what he would do for you, because we are a community, and he believes that's what we "should" do, help each other so we can all benefit.

This guy don't post on the internet, but i do, like it or not. If you like me or don't like me, this trail ain't really about him, it ain't about me, it's about all of us. And it ain't about having a trail to ride, it's about working to shift our efforts to make a strong community that is not afraid to volunteer, and is not oblivious. We are building it for the next generation of riders, the kids, your children. We don't need more trails as much as we need to develop our community to not be like the world around us, selfish, and self-absorbed. We mt. bike to escape all that bull$hit, don't we?

Me personally i like seeing friends stop by and enjoy their rides on nice days. But i get tired of people thanking me. That's like i'm spending all my time for them, i'm not. i'm doing it for US. And thankfully nobody has been stupid enough to make suggestions to me on trail building out there.

And here's the strange part.

What we're doing is actually fun. We make it fun, even if we're real busy, and the people that have stepped up so far have made it enjoyable. We are not a clique, we are not a group, we are not representing anybody, and we all can't stand each other, we're all ugly and dirty, and we laugh at how ugly and dirty we are and throw dirt at each other because it makes us look better.

We've got lots of work ahead of us before we're done with one of the best trails in Washington State, in one of the best parks in the world.

Please don't $hit on our trail, come grace us with your great smile, we'll gladly put a shovel in your hand and show you how to dig a hole you can poop into.

http://evergreenmtb.org/recreation/calendar.php?event_id=9301

http://evergreenmtb.org/recreation/calendar.php?event_id=9183
 

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That's the sucky part of the emotional roller coaster of working out there we were talking about....

Some plum smuggling egotistically superior kitted up goober passed us on his hard tail Kona twice Wednesday and looked upset that us and our shovels were in his way.

Then, a bunch of kids came by and stopped and talked excitedly about all the cool stuff going on and actually helped a little.

Pissed, then stoked, then pissed, then stoked....

At this point I'd rather have another bucket of dirt moved for me than another half faked "thank you" too....
 

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ZombieSkook said:
And it ain't about having a trail to ride, it's about working to shift our efforts to make a strong community that is not afraid to volunteer, and is not oblivious. We are building it for the next generation of riders, the kids, your children. We don't need more trails as much as we need to develop our community to not be like the world around us, selfish, and self-absorbed. We mt. bike to escape all that bull$hit, don't we?

What we're doing is actually fun. We make it fun, even if we're real busy, and the people that have stepped up so far have made it enjoyable. We are not a clique, we are not a group, we are not representing anybody, and we all can't stand each other, we're all ugly and dirty, and we laugh at how ugly and dirty we are and throw dirt at each other because it makes us look better.
Tim, a few comments.

1. "Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too," Ewwwwwwwww, that is f'ing nasty!!!

2. While the images you've been posting of the trail look great, you've got to put yourself in other people's (non-mtb'ers) shoes. A lot of people don't even consider that you might re-veg the area around the trail once work is done. All they see is a wide swath of disturbed dirt and flip out. I think "staying dark" for these projects is for the best until they're done.

3. I would not leave the trail rideable until it is done. I'd put logs across it every 10 feet if that's what it takes. Nothing I can stand more than working on something and having someone ride down it. In fact, I shut down existing trails if we're working on them.

4. Whether part of a clique, a group or whatever....I assume you signed up for this project understanding you'd be on the hook for making it happen? Was your expectation that volunteers would come out of the wood work to help? If so, I think your expectations (of people's selflessness) are totally out of line. Sad, I know.....but true. I know there's been a fair bit of debate about a 3rd HLC line and those guys are really weighing the time they have to dedicate at Duthie vs. other projects on their plates. FWIW, none of that discussion revolves around how many volunteers are going to be helping them build.

5. "one of the best trails in Washington State". That's a bold claim dude, but certainly something worth striving for. I like to think that every trail I build is better than the one before it, but I know I've got a lot to learn and every trail I build has flaws.

Cheers,
EB
 

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It never ends...

It does strike me that you all volunteered to build these trails. Yet, you come off as if somebody else should be building it for you? It's your trail. You have assumed the responsibility of getting it done. Everyone out there knows the game. Building trail is a TON of work. There is no denying that. But, it also has amazing rewards that far outweigh the sweat it takes to complete a trail. Putting people down for suggesting trail ideas or if they don't help is wrong. If I read this thread I wouldn't want to help you either. It just doesn't come off as very constructive or nice. You may have bitten off more than you can chew and are regretting it now. That's nobody's fault but yours.
On a positive note. The trail will be great. People are stoked to see your progress. Some days you'll get help. Most days not. Time to buck up and do what it takes. The reward will be great. Maybe now is a good time to remind you that you have been given the PRIVILEGE of building a trail in one of the nation's premier MTB parks. Is that not enough???? I mean, if you want to quit. I may know some people that would be happy to finish it for you? ;) We'll call it the "Deuce Slalom" or "Charmin Chicane's".
Also, EB is right. We (HLC) just signed up to do a trail that is almost the exact length as yours. Not as wide, but an intermediate jump trail that will help bridge some of the gaps in trail difficulty out there. On top of that, AJ at GHY, as well as Kyle and Nolan are building two trails of equal length right next to ours. It is a daunting amount of work. But the plus is that we get more awesome trails out there that will serve as great skillbuilders. Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
 

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ZombieSkook said:
But i get tired of people thanking me. That's like i'm spending all my time for them, i'm not. i'm doing it for US.

And thankfully nobody has been stupid enough to make suggestions to me on trail building out there.
LAME.

Get over yourself dude. :rolleyes:
 

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Most people are lazy, that's just the way it is.
 

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Largextracheese said:
Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
LXC - Ha ha, I love you you big bear!
 

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Unicorn Disabilities Act
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ZombieSkook said:
Please don't $hit on our trail, come grace us with your great smile, we'll gladly put a shovel in your hand and show you how to dig a hole you can poop into.
I like to poop on this thread instead! :ihih:

I keed, I keed!

 

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The original post sounds like a plea for help to me. Maybe the tone could have been more positive but I can understand the frustration when people don't help. There's nothing wrong with asking more people to become involved and share ownership of a trail though. A lot of people won't participate when the trail isn't one their going to ride or get excited about, but that shouldn't be an issue here. I would definitely help if I lived closer!
 

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Dude, you are presumably an adult, building a trail for bikes in the woods mainly ridden by kids, teenagers and other miscreants. Lighten up. Its a hobby. In the grand scheme of things, who cares about duthie or anything else? Its just for fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Borneo said:
That's the sucky part of the emotional roller coaster of working out there we were talking about....

Some plum smuggling egotistically superior kitted up goober passed us on his hard tail Kona twice Wednesday and looked upset that us and our shovels were in his way.

Then, a bunch of kids came by and stopped and talked excitedly about all the cool stuff going on and actually helped a little.

Pissed, then stoked, then pissed, then stoked....

At this point I'd rather have another bucket of dirt moved for me than another half faked "thank you" too....
No actually i've been pretty happy with the help i've gotten so far. This post is written about one particular instance. The story is about one day, when a difference can be made most people's reaction was to complain, and not to take initiative and help.

Do i think that more help could come? Sure, but that would not change even if we were seeing numbers that EBextreme gets up in Galby.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
ebxtreme said:
Tim, a few comments.

1. "Somebody has been taking dumps on the trail too," Ewwwwwwwww, that is f'ing nasty!!!

2. While the images you've been posting of the trail look great, you've got to put yourself in other people's (non-mtb'ers) shoes. A lot of people don't even consider that you might re-veg the area around the trail once work is done. All they see is a wide swath of disturbed dirt and flip out. I think "staying dark" for these projects is for the best until they're done.

3. I would not leave the trail rideable until it is done. I'd put logs across it every 10 feet if that's what it takes. Nothing I can stand more than working on something and having someone ride down it. In fact, I shut down existing trails if we're working on them.

4. Whether part of a clique, a group or whatever....I assume you signed up for this project understanding you'd be on the hook for making it happen? Was your expectation that volunteers would come out of the wood work to help? If so, I think your expectations (of people's selflessness) are totally out of line. Sad, I know.....but true. I know there's been a fair bit of debate about a 3rd HLC line and those guys are really weighing the time they have to dedicate at Duthie vs. other projects on their plates. FWIW, none of that discussion revolves around how many volunteers are going to be helping them build.

5. "one of the best trails in Washington State". That's a bold claim dude, but certainly something worth striving for. I like to think that every trail I build is better than the one before it, but I know I've got a lot to learn and every trail I build has flaws.

Cheers,
EB
i value your sentiment probably more than anyones on this board when it comes to understanding trailwork.

That being said let's see if i can answer points.

1.i know dude, we thought we were done with poo after Colonnade, at least we're not finding hypodermic needles.

2. No comment.

3. Yah we are thinking of closing the trail to help promote more building and less riding on the trail. We'll see if that makes a difference.

4. Let's not derail my comments to make it seem like it was specifically for "my" project, or rather the trail i'm working on right now. This comment is on a broader scope, and i think me, and you and all volunteers who are "out in front" or most active, could make a difference in unifying a front to motivate next generations of riders. i know you do, i know i try, if we provide a singular purpose or a cause that helps motivate i think that will help. Help to where peoples first insticts are action instead of words.

5. i stand by my comment.:) For a plethora of reasons, right trail, right place, right time more than anything else really though if that helps you think i'm trying to be King Turd of Poop Hill. Read it how ya want.:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Largextracheese said:
It does strike me that you all volunteered to build these trails. Yet, you come off as if somebody else should be building it for you? It's your trail. You have assumed the responsibility of getting it done. Everyone out there knows the game. Building trail is a TON of work. There is no denying that. But, it also has amazing rewards that far outweigh the sweat it takes to complete a trail. Putting people down for suggesting trail ideas or if they don't help is wrong. If I read this thread I wouldn't want to help you either. It just doesn't come off as very constructive or nice. You may have bitten off more than you can chew and are regretting it now. That's nobody's fault but yours.
On a positive note. The trail will be great. People are stoked to see your progress. Some days you'll get help. Most days not. Time to buck up and do what it takes. The reward will be great. Maybe now is a good time to remind you that you have been given the PRIVILEGE of building a trail in one of the nation's premier MTB parks. Is that not enough???? I mean, if you want to quit. I may know some people that would be happy to finish it for you? ;) We'll call it the "Deuce Slalom" or "Charmin Chicane's".
Also, EB is right. We (HLC) just signed up to do a trail that is almost the exact length as yours. Not as wide, but an intermediate jump trail that will help bridge some of the gaps in trail difficulty out there. On top of that, AJ at GHY, as well as Kyle and Nolan are building two trails of equal length right next to ours. It is a daunting amount of work. But the plus is that we get more awesome trails out there that will serve as great skillbuilders. Seeing the smiles on peoples faces after they just shredded one of your creations is all that it takes to keep most of the builders I know happy. I know that's all I need.
haha i agree with many of your points but i think you misread alot of what i say, so some of what you project for me is misrepresenting. Which also means alot of other people misread too. And you know that's ok... i can't cover every point and defend all innacuracies, and comment where we see eye to eye, i don't think people would read the pages it would take anyways.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Dave_schuldt said:
Most people are lazy, that's just the way it is.
Not entirely true.

i think people can be inspired. If there was a singular positive message derived from the proper leaders in our bike community, we would have a better opportunity to groom an atmosphere that is more pro-active and motivated.

Yes the post could have been more positive, and i fully expect the real leaders representing mt. biking in our area to continue to give the ra ra ra. But i hold no title, and i honestly don't try to offend. We are all of us not perfect, but i would like to see our community try to raise the bar and become better.

i have awesome positive stories about kids coming out and stoked about the trail and stopping their rides and helping dig. i'm not here to spoon feed people stuff they just want to hear all the time, and i'm not here to say it's all bad either.

The story is just a story, i hope it makes people motivated to help. Don't HAVE to be me or Wad, or Duthie. At the very least i hope it get's people thinking.
 

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Well that's what happens when you leave the TP out where anyone can find it. People think they can just use it.

But seriously though... that's just nasty. Anyone who shits on a trail needs to have his nose rubbed in it.
 

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I'd clean the poop up for you ALL.DAY. if you'd go to political/trail/access meetings for me. Seriously.
 

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I think one of the problems is most people are not experienced with trail work and are intimidated to start, for worry that they will somehow mess something up and make it so that section of trail has to be re-done. I know the first time I stopped to help with some digging out at Duthie I had never done trail work before, and had no clue what I was doing when someone told me to "make the trail drain better" and handed me a shovel. I found myself more valuable when it came to carrying wood to different trails that were having new features added to the trails, because its hard to **** up carrying wood. I know this is why work parties are a good way to get involved, because with a large group effort its a good way to learn some of the ins and outs, or at least get assigned to a basic task at first, but when people ride up on you on a random day working on the trail and say "thanks," it's probably because they don't know what else they can do! That, and some people are more apt to help out by donating to the park than picking up a shovel. That's what my old man does, whereas I'm more likely to stop and help move some stuff cause I'm broke! You don't know that that guy riding by saying "thanks" hasn't made a generous donation.
 
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