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Stayin' Puft
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I just took the end-caps off of my DT 240s hubs to see what the deal would be with this $30 end-cap replacement kit to support a 9mm front or 10mm rear thru-bolt instead of the standard 5mm QR. I know this is not a 29er-specific product but some of you folks are pretty smart so here goes anyway.

It looks to me like the end-cap presses directly against the actual axle of the hub, which is a hollow tube. So the whole system is "squeezed" when you tighten either a QR or an RWS thru-bolt against it, and the force of the dropouts goes against the end-caps, which goes against the axle-tube. So, regardless of the diameter of the QR or Thru-bolt itself, the stiffness is up to the axle tube pressing against the dropouts. This is not moving around or I would see marks from the serrations on my frame, and the wheel would slip. There is nothing to flex besides the axle tube itself, which is the same axle regardless of it being a thru-bolt or a 5mm skewer doing the squeezing. I can get an XT steel skewer pretty darn tight, probably tighter than I could get a nut using DT's little integrated plastic "wrench" (that appears to be what the RWS levers are.)

I measured the inner diameter of the rear hub tube, and it is a little less than 12mm, so it does not appear that the 10mm thru-bolt would actually contact the axle tube directly. So...where is the benefit? Some riders have said this stiffens things up, but is this a placebo effect that people feel to defend the fact that they spent $150 on new skewers? Is this pure marketing?:skep:

These looked like a cool solution, esp. for the rear in conjunction with track-ends and a singlespeed. I would be able to remove the rear wheel by pulling the thru-bolt straight out without loosening integrated track-end tensioner screws and having to re-adjust. But if I was to fork out the $$$ that DT wants I would hope to experience the improved axle stiffness also...just not buying it from looking at the concept, and I don't know anyone who has them I can ride.
 

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meh....
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The increase in stiffness comes from the bit outside of the hub, not the part inside. Look at what goes through the dropouts, a big wire in the case of the QR. That's where any flex comes from. It might not slide around, but there is twisting that can occur.
 

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Stayin' Puft
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Jerk_Chicken said:
The RWS is a thru axle.
Well, according to DT Swiss, RWS is a Ratchet Wheelmounting System. RWS is just the lever-tightening alternative to a typical QR cam mechanism, and includes both standard 5mm QR sizes as well as the larger thru-bolts:
http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Components2009/RWS.aspx

The DT thru-bolts are designed to work in standard 9mm front and 10mm rear applications in forks and dropouts that would also accept common QR-based wheels. The thru-bolt is not the axle in the case of the DT hub, because there is another axle-tube that the bearings actually ride on. The thru-bolt is just a tubular aluminum bolt in place of the QR to apply the "squeezing" force against the dropouts or fork.

BTW...I did my product research on the web before posting and also looked at previous mtbr posts...I am just questioning the real benefit from what I see.
 

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Thru bolts are bolts that go directly into the axle from both sides. The RWS is a thru axle clamping system.

As far as ratcheting, they are FOS. It doesn't ratchet. It only allows the user to position the lever where they would like its final position to be.

I was correcting you where you were indicating it was a through bolt, as in the title of this thread. It's not a "thru-bolts" system. It's a through-axle clamping system, and yes, it also has a skewer type system.
 

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rider
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When I converted my two DT FR rear hubs it was not just just changing end caps as DT originally told me. The 10mm rear end caps fit loosely over the 10mm thru bolt. After much of my telling the DT folk "this just cant be right". The tech spoke with an engineer and he confirmed what I was saying. You need to change the axle to a 10mm thru bolt specific axle that fits the thru bolt (or RWS) very well. So well that they slide into each other smoothly but no play can be detected once fully engaged.

So change the axle and the end caps and you are on your way to serious stiffness. Now for the rest of the system: The very high quality anodized threads on the RWS system will provide much greater clamping force than even the Shimano XT skewer, providing you lube them. I have heard that they have a metal handle RWS as well. I don't like the RWS system because the handle looks a bit vulnerable in a crash. I have the DT 10mm alloy thru bolt and carry a 8mm allen wrench to tighten it up really firmly. If you need the max stiffness out of this system you can even get a 10mm steel thru bolt from DT also. But that seems like massive overkill, even for me.

As Sheldon would have said: Enough??

JC: sorry to disagree, but many refer to what you are calling thru bolts as a bolt on hub system. After all, the bolts do not go all the way thru the axle, just screw into the actual axle, right? A true bicycle thru axle system is best described as the common 20mm T/A fork system where one axle goes all the way thru the hub and engages directly with the bearings and also engages the frame/swingarm/ fork. I believe that the thru bolt term is correct for the DT system as the bolt goes all the way thru the hub but does not engage the bearings, the DT hub has an internal axle that serves that function. Besides DT calls their system thru bolts, see here: http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Accessories-(1)/Hub-Conversion-Kits.aspx
 

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I like bikes
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Stiff

canyonrat said:
Well, according to DT Swiss, RWS is a Ratchet Wheelmounting System. RWS is just the lever-tightening alternative to a typical QR cam mechanism, and includes both standard 5mm QR sizes as well as the larger thru-bolts:
http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Components2009/RWS.aspx

The DT thru-bolts are designed to work in standard 9mm front and 10mm rear applications in forks and dropouts that would also accept common QR-based wheels. The thru-bolt is not the axle in the case of the DT hub, because there is another axle-tube that the bearings actually ride on. The thru-bolt is just a tubular aluminum bolt in place of the QR to apply the "squeezing" force against the dropouts or fork.

BTW...I did my product research on the web before posting and also looked at previous mtbr posts...I am just questioning the real benefit from what I see.
To keep it simple the 9mm through bolt front and 10mm through bolt rear will stiffen things up. The other product will be the same as the QR.

FWIW I have been running the DT 9mm on one of my forks and can notice the difference compared to my other QR fork.
 

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meh....
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Thru Bolt, a bolt goes all the way thru the hub with a nut threaded one on end, or the bolt threads into the dropout on one side. It acts as an axle, having a head on one end and a nut threaded onto the other makes it a bolt.

Thru Axle, an axle goes thru the hub and is clamped/fixed in place by the dropouts or typically the fork legs themselves. Usually has a nut of sorts on one end, but the fork leg will clamp the other so it's not really a bolt.

Bolt On, one bolt threads into the hub on each side gripping each dropout.

RWS is a thru bolt. King Fun Bolts are bolt on. Maverick hubs are thru axle hubs.
 

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I've been looking at the RWS recently as well, particularly the "through-bolt" 9mm front/10mm rear systems (as opposed to the QR-replacement units, which I'm sure are nice).

Two questions come to mind:

1. Compatibilty with Hope Pro IIs? There is apparently such thing as 10mm thru-bolt endcaps for the rear (there is also a bolt-on rear, which, yes, is different). There is not currently a 9mm thru-bolt front endcap, but for the cost of a set I'd be willing to drill out a set of QR endcaps and see what happens. I'd have to look at the way hub/axle/thru arrangement was set up and make sure the force were going through the axle, not the bearings.

2. Is the RWS clamping force strong enough for horiz dropout singlespeed applications? I've used both track-style bolt-on hubs (Surly, etc) and QR hubs with a steel bolt-on skewer, which work mostly, but have had slippage.

Actually, hm. I wonder if I could make a 9mmm/10mm bolt-on skewer set on the lathe...
 

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meh....
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Marburg said:
I've been looking at the RWS recently as well, particularly the "through-bolt" 9mm front/10mm rear systems (as opposed to the QR-replacement units, which I'm sure are nice).

Two questions come to mind:

1. Compatibilty with Hope Pro IIs? There is apparently such thing as 10mm thru-bolt endcaps for the rear (there is also a bolt-on rear, which, yes, is different). There is not currently a 9mm thru-bolt front endcap, but for the cost of a set I'd be willing to drill out a set of QR endcaps and see what happens. I'd have to look at the way hub/axle/thru arrangement was set up and make sure the force were going through the axle, not the bearings.
It's been done. Lookie here http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=460766

2. Is the RWS clamping force strong enough for horiz dropout singlespeed applications? I've used both track-style bolt-on hubs (Surly, etc) and QR hubs with a steel bolt-on skewer, which work mostly, but have had slippage.
I doubt it without tugs. I have a 10mm RWS rear hub, the bolt is aluminum and the handle is plastic. Go steel for a few grams and a lot more clamping power.

Monte
 

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Monte said:
Sweet!

I doubt it without tugs. I have a 10mm RWS rear hub, the bolt is aluminum and the handle is plastic. Go steel for a few grams and a lot more clamping power.

Monte
This has me thinking more and more about making a Hadley-style 9mm/10mm bolt-on through-axle. It's been a couple of years since I've had a Hadley in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it would work...

er, scratch that. before I fire up the lathe, maybe I'll just _buy_ a Hadley axle and try it.
 

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meh....
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Marburg said:
This has me thinking more and more about making a Hadley-style 9mm/10mm bolt-on through-axle. It's been a couple of years since I've had a Hadley in front of me, but I'm pretty sure it would work...

er, scratch that. before I fire up the lathe, maybe I'll just _buy_ a Hadley axle and try it.
Bolt-on and through-axle are (2) different things. A bolt-on would work, Hadley makes a bolt-on SS hub.

As for through-axle this could work, but you'd want to get a steel through-axle imho. If you already have a hub that you want to convert to 10 mm through-axle and use for SS find a steel through-axle. DT Swiss makes one. I'm sure there are others, but I'm not familiar with them.

Monte
 

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Monte said:
Bolt-on and through-axle are (2) different things. A bolt-on would work, Hadley makes a bolt-on SS hub.

As for through-axle this could work, but you'd want to get a steel through-axle imho. If you already have a hub that you want to convert to 10 mm through-axle and use for SS find a steel through-axle. DT Swiss makes one. I'm sure there are others, but I'm not familiar with them.

Monte
Sorry, should have been more precise. I'd like a through axle which is tightened with an external tool (i.e. 15mm wrench or 6mm allen key) as opposed to the quick-release-ish DT Swiss system (with the worries about breaking plastic levers and all that).

Doe DT make a steel through-axle? The "normal" 5mm RWS skewers are steel (or ti), just like any other skewer, but their 10mm is listed as alu.
 

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The "plastic" lever is extremely tough. Mine has taken many rock strikes and is still there. It's not the clamping mechanism, which some seem to keep thinking it is. It's simply a lever for tightening and should it fail or break, the nut on the opposite side has wrench flats, and the lever side has a hex to hold it in place while turning the nut.
 

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meh....
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Marburg said:
Sorry, should have been more precise. I'd like a through axle which is tightened with an external tool (i.e. 15mm wrench or 6mm allen key) as opposed to the quick-release-ish DT Swiss system (with the worries about breaking plastic levers and all that).

Doe DT make a steel through-axle? The "normal" 5mm RWS skewers are steel (or ti), just like any other skewer, but their 10mm is listed as alu.
Someone makes them. You'll have to search, or talk to your LBS and check the catalogs. My DT Swiss 340 hub came with one, it's a couple years old. DT make a thru-axle 10mm/135mm for Saint, but it doesn't have the nut on one end. I'm not sure if it's steel either, but it doesn't have the RWS lever.
 

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Stayin' Puft
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks all for your input, there seems to be a consensus that there is a stiffness improvement for the system, but it is not actually from the hub itself being stiffer. I guess the nuts of the clamping device that DT calls the "thru bolt" add stability to the whole sandwich because the force is applied from a wider base.

Too bad there is not a bigger selection of 10mm and even 9mm clamping devices, if there is stiffness improvement without having to move to a full 15 or 20mm thru axle perhaps the approach will catch on with more manufacturers. The Hadley bolt I can only find in a kit including extra hub parts I don't need for DT, and the kit costs as much as the DT RWS device would. For SS I would be using it in a frame with track-ends and built-in tensioners so there would be additional insurance against slippage. :thumbsup:

Jerk_Chicken, it sounds like you own one, can you tell me; it appears to be a torx wrench fitting on the lever side for a backup tightening/loosening method, is that a T25 size like disc brake rotors? At least many multi-tools have those now in case it is needed on the trail. BTW I appreciate your concern on the terminology, by calling it a "thru-bolt" I was only calling it what DT appears to call it. Looking at Hadley terminology, they seem to call it mostly bolt-on, but then sometimes I also see the terms bolt and axle used interchangeably describing their products. What a mess. :rolleyes:
 

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Monte said:
Someone makes them. You'll have to search, or talk to your LBS and check the catalogs. My DT Swiss 340 hub came with one, it's a couple years old. DT make a thru-axle 10mm/135mm for Saint, but it doesn't have the nut on one end. I'm not sure if it's steel either, but it doesn't have the RWS lever.
I'm planning on building a set of 29" wheels with 2009 Shimano Saint hubs. Rear axle is available as 135/10mm. They now have standard center lock discs and are lighter than the present incarnation of XT so it's a no brainer for me as I like Shimano components. The standard Shimano Thru Axle ( Shimano's term ) is steel. I don't know what size wrench it uses and I don't particularly want to carry an addition wrench in my pack if I need to fix a flat, so I'm thinking of using a DT RWS for the sake of convenience.

Ronnie.
 

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meh....
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canyonrat said:
Looking at Hadley terminology, they seem to call it mostly bolt-on, but then sometimes I also see the terms bolt and axle used interchangeably describing their products. What a mess. :rolleyes:
This may be the retailers describing them incorrectly too. Hadley makes a 10mm bolt-on rear hub, and a 10mm T/A rear hub. The bolt-on comes with 2 bolts that thread into each side of the hub, the T/A comes with a thru-bolt that goes all the way thru the hub.

I have a RWS rear hub, I'll look at the ends too.

If you don't want the RWS search around for the Hadley thru-bolt. It's hard to find without the conversion parts, but they're out there. Maybe your LBS can get it if online isn't working.
 

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Some good info in this thread. This is my experience with these bits:

1. "Bolt On" hubs, to me, include tapped/threaded axles that accept bolts that are tightened with hex keys (e.g. CK Funn Bolts, DT Swiss, etc.) and nutted-axle hubs that have externally threaded axle ends that accept nuts that are tightened with hex/box wrenches (e.g. Surly, Phil Wood, Profile, etc.). That latter are more commonly found in SS applications. I've owned all of the above and they are materially stiffer than QR set-ups.

2. "Thru-bolt", to me, is really any non-"Thru-axle" application where dropouts are riding on the bolt/skeweer itself vs. an axle end cap which houses a skewer. I had this with both my I9s (axles with an allen key head on one end and tapped/thread to accept an allen key bolt on the other) and my current DT front wheel that uses their RWS "Thru-bolt" end caps and a NOS 9mm Skraxle QR-style thru-bolt. The tolerances between the Skraxle and the thru-bolt end caps as well as the Skraxle and the fork dropouts are significantly better than a 5mm QR and related end caps.

3. "Thru-axle", to me, involves both a clamping mechanism that is in-line with the axle as well as a clamping mechanism that is perpendicular to the axle on each of the frame and/or fork dropouts.

IME, Thru-axle>Bolt-On>Thru-Bolt when it comes to stiffness. I digress.

As you were.
 
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